Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[800001]

810001 did overnight testing last night, starting from Old Dalby then to Peterborough, where it then did several test runs to/from Newark in electric mode, its first time with pan up on the national network.

 

[QSK19]

Brilliant news - another milestone! I’ve seen pictures of 810s with pan up at the factory; however, very good to hear that it’s moving in electric mode.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

810001 did overnight testing last night, starting from Old Dalby then to Peterborough, where it then did several test runs to/from Newark in electric mode, its first time with pan up on the national network.

Were these in protective blocks or under open line conditions.

 

[800001]

Were these in protective blocks or under open line conditions.

Open line. 22:30 north from Peterborough to Newark. Then back and forth.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Open line. 22:30 north from Peterborough to Newark. Then back and forth.

So that means they've past basic type testing if they are allowed out under open line conditions. One has to wonder why its going to take so long to get them into traffic.

 

[QSK19]

So that means they've past basic type testing if they are allowed out under open line conditions. One has to wonder why its going to take so long to get them into traffic.

Lack of agreements over training is one significant hurdle, as I understand it from previous posts on RF.

 

[Yew]

Yes, that is a fair point indeed. Although it's interesting to me to note that the crowding seems to remain based on passenger numbers from the northern section of the route beyond the 360s operating area. But as you say accurate data would be needed overall. But loads of people complain about crowding (to me at least!) so anecdotally it's clearly a problem.

Whilst they are very nice trains, it is annoying when EMR talk about them, as they can't really go to any of the major East Midlands cities.


As a side question, given that EMT reconfigured the 222's to help with operations, how easy is it to reconfigure the IET based trains, as I worry that the "all 5 car sets" configuration is going to mean that the poor First Class service on the route is not going to ever return to it's 2010's quality; as it will simply be too expensive doing it across multiple sets.

 

[JonathanH]

As a side question, given that EMT reconfigured the 222's to help with operations, how easy is it to reconfigure the IET based trains, as I worry that the "all 5 car sets" configuration is going to mean that the poor First Class service on the route is not going to ever return to it's 2010's quality; as it will simply be too expensive doing it across multiple sets.

No one will want them to have some 810 units with less than 5 coaches so reconfiguration is highly unlikely. Do you mean some units having more first class and some less? That seems like an operational nuisance.

If a certain level of first class service isn't being provided currently, what would be the trigger for trying to reinstate it?

 

[Energy]

As a side question, given that EMT reconfigured the 222's to help with operations, how easy is it to reconfigure the IET based trains, as I worry that the "all 5 car sets" configuration is going to mean that the poor First Class service on the route is not going to ever return to it's 2010's quality; as it will simply be too expensive doing it across multiple sets.

Normal IETs can be reconfigured into an odd number of vehicles. Normal IETs are formed of the driving+trailer+pantograph+transformer+disabled toilet vehicles on either end, with the centre vehicles being motor vehicles or a trailer vehicle (which have different inside frame bogies). The motor vehicles each have an auxiliary supply feeding the auxiliary bus to the rest of the train for redundancy and non-motor vehicles. Each motor vehicle can be fitted with a generator unit, these are not shared between motor vehicles so if the generator is out power is no longer provided to the motors and the vehicle draws auxiliary power from the auxiliary bus.

The 810s have the 2nd and 4th vehicles as motor cars, with two gen sets, one on the vehicle and one on the adjacent vehicle. As such they are less self contained so would be more difficult to rearrange.

Do they need the 222 levels of First Class? EMT's first-class provision is more of a mistake in the 222 order and offering cheap first-class was chosen as a fix. The 222s were also originally a 4-car and 9-car order, the former was too small.

 

[LowLevel]

Normal IETs can be reconfigured into an odd number of vehicles. Normal IETs are formed of the driving+trailer+pantograph+disabled toilet vehicles on either end, with the centre vehicles being motor vehicles or a trailer vehicle (which have different inside frame bogies). The motor vehicles each have an auxiliary supply feeding the auxiliary bus to the rest of the train for redundancy and non-motor vehicles. Each motor vehicle can be fitted with a generator unit, these are not shared between motor vehicles so if the generator is out power is no longer provided to the motors and the vehicle draws auxiliary power from the auxiliary bus.

The 810s aren't dissimilar but the pantograph and transformer are in the centre vehicle, the only trailer, and the driving vehicles are motored and have engines. Hitachi probably could make the 810s longer but this would require new build vehicles as the 5-car units cannot be made shorter.

Do they need the 222 levels of First Class? EMT's first-class provision is more of a mistake in the 222 order and offering cheap first-class was chosen as a fix. The 222s were also originally a 4-car and 9-car order, the former was too small.

To be fair the spec of the 222s was to cater for the large and lucrative market of well heeled first class commuters that mostly but not entirely has ceased to exist.

They used to be extremely busy. The 4 car original spec was wrong but the theory was not totally without merits.

That's why a relatively short route had things like staffed first class lounges everywhere and a good level of on board staffing.

 

[Yew]

Normal IETs can be reconfigured into an odd number of vehicles. Normal IETs are formed of the driving+trailer+pantograph+disabled toilet vehicles on either end, with the centre vehicles being motor vehicles or a trailer vehicle (which have different inside frame bogies). The motor vehicles each have an auxiliary supply feeding the auxiliary bus to the rest of the train for redundancy and non-motor vehicles. Each motor vehicle can be fitted with a generator unit, these are not shared between motor vehicles so if the generator is out power is no longer provided to the motors and the vehicle draws auxiliary power from the auxiliary bus.

The 810s aren't dissimilar but the pantograph and transformer are in the centre vehicle, the only trailer, and the driving vehicles are motored and have engines. Hitachi probably could make the 810s longer but this would require new build vehicles as the 5-car units cannot be made shorter.

I think there were a set of 222/221 cabs sitting around unused, so that EMR could get more length on the existing sets?

Does a single Pantograph coach have enough capacity to run say, a 7 coach setup?

Do they need the 222 levels of First Class? EMT's first-class provision is more of a mistake in the 222 order and offering cheap first-class was chosen as a fix. The 222s were also originally a 4-car and 9-car order, the former was too small.

Apologies, I was thinking more around the requirement for two staffed galleys making a more substantial meal service, such as that seen on the HST's in the 2010s, cost prohibitive, as more people will be needed, as compared to a single full-length set.

No one will want them to have some 810 units with less than 5 coaches so reconfiguration is highly unlikely. Do you mean some units having more first class and some less? That seems like an operational nuisance.

If a certain level of first class service isn't being provided currently, what would be the trigger for trying to reinstate it?

Apologies, I was thinking more that the requirement for multiple Galleys would make it unlikely for things like the paid-for meal service to return.

 

[Energy]

I think there were a set of 222/221 cabs sitting around unused, so that EMR could get more length on the existing sets?

There was a set of 221 cabs which later got reformed into some 4 car units and passed to XC IIRC.

Does a single Pantograph coach have enough capacity to run say, a 7 coach setup?

Yes, the 9-car IETs run with only 1 pan up. 9 car IETs use the front pantograph, 390s use the rear pantograph, and I believe the 5 car IETs use the ones at opposing ends to maximise distance between pantographs.

Its unclear the pantograph arrangement on the 810s other than that the centre vehicle is where the transformer will be located. Most test runs are pan down so difficult to see from platform level. I don't believe they have exterior signage either, otherwise a disabled sticker would be a good indicator as Hitachi usually place the toilets beneath the pantograph well.

To be fair the spec of the 222s was to cater for the large and lucrative market of well heeled first class commuters that mostly but not entirely has ceased to exist.

They used to be extremely busy. The 4 car original spec was wrong but the theory was not totally without merits.

That's why a relatively short route had things like staffed first class lounges everywhere and a good level of on board staffing.

Fair, though this market is unlikely to return so the 810 first class provision is adequate IMO.

 

[JonathanH]

I was thinking more that the requirement for multiple Galleys would make it unlikely for things like the paid-for meal service to return.

Even if a paid-for meal service was reintroduced, would demand actually be sufficient such that it would need to be provided in two separate first class areas? The posts above suggest that the number of passengers travelling first class on the route has diminished.

 

[dosxuk]

The 222s were also originally a 4-car and 9-car order, the former was too small.

Worth remembering the 4-car sets were introduced to replace the 2 and 3 car 170's. It could be said their main problem was they were too successful.

 

[800001]

There was a set of 221 cabs which later got reformed into some 4 car units and passed to XC IIRC.

Yes, the 9-car IETs run with only 1 pan up. 9 car IETs use the front pantograph, 390s use the rear pantograph, and I believe the 5 car IETs use the ones at opposing ends to maximise distance between pantographs.

Its unclear the pantograph arrangement on the 810s other than that the centre vehicle is where the transformer will be located. Most test runs are pan down so difficult to see from platform level. I don't believe they have exterior signage either, otherwise a disabled sticker would be a good indicator as Hitachi usually place the toilets beneath the pantograph well.

Fair, though this market is unlikely to return so the 810 first class provision is adequate IMO.

810s have the pantograph in the same coaches as all other class 8Xx vehicles, the end cars.
No exterior signage yet as only the base purple is carried, with nothing else applied to any units.

 

[craigybagel]

The 810s aren't dissimilar but the pantograph and transformer are in the centre vehicle, the only trailer, and the driving vehicles are motored and have engines. Hitachi probably could make the 810s longer but this would require new build vehicles as the 5-car units cannot be made shorter.

I thought the driving vehicles were still going to be trailers, albeit with generators? With the power they generate being sent to motors in the middle cars?

 

[Trainman40083]

I thought the driving vehicles were still going to be trailers, albeit with generators? With the power they generate being sent to motors in the middle cars?

A five car 810 unit for EMU has diesel engines under four coaches, except the car that provides the electric traction. These units have more diesel engines than other 5 car IEPs elsewhere, as they are expected to operate for longer on diesel. One does hope that by the time they enter service, the OHLE between Bedford and Kentish Town has been upgraded to allow for them to be maximised under electric traction.

 

[craigybagel]

A five car 810 unit for EMU has diesel engines under four coaches, except the car that provides the electric traction. These units have more diesel engines than other 5 car IEPs elsewhere, as they are expected to operate for longer on diesel. One does hope that by the time they enter service, the OHLE between Bedford and Kentish Town has been upgraded to allow for them to be maximised under electric traction.

Indeed, but my understanding is that whilst diesel engines are fitted to 4 cars out of 5, traction motors are only fitted to 2, and that the driving cars are still unpowered trailers - albeit with diesel engines supplying power to the motors in the adjacent car?

 

[Trainman40083]

Indeed, but my understanding is that whilst diesel engines are fitted to 4 cars out of 5, traction motors are only fitted to 2, and that the driving cars are still unpowered trailers - albeit with diesel engines supplying power to the motors in the adjacent car?

I think we would need to see a plan of the unit to confirm that. Your version suggests that if one diesel engine were to fail, the train would not move very fast, which on MML could be very costly.

To be fair the spec of the 222s was to cater for the large and lucrative market of well heeled first class commuters that mostly but not entirely has ceased to exist.

They used to be extremely busy. The 4 car original spec was wrong but the theory was not totally without merits.

That's why a relatively short route had things like staffed first class lounges everywhere and a good level of on board staffing.

All the comments I have seen from first class passengers, bemoan the lack of first class lounges (post COVID) , woeful WiFi, indifferent food offering, standard class passengers being moved into first class carriages due to overcrowding etc. I would fully expect those former first class passengers to now drive rather than use the train. Why? Because I know some that do. I guess the value for money is not there, so they use other modes. If they cannot reliably work on the train, is there an advantage to using the train?

 

[Rxstron]

With Avanti 805s entering service today, I’ve noticed that the usual dot matrix boards at the end of the carriages have been replaced by LCD screens. Does anyone know if the 810s will have this aswell?

 

[Aspen90]

Even if a paid-for meal service was reintroduced, would demand actually be sufficient such that it would need to be provided in two separate first class areas? The posts above suggest that the number of passengers travelling first class on the route has diminished.

Also it’s worth remembering that the galleys on the 810’s have been so stripped out to the bare minimum that they literally have a microwave. They won’t be able to do any meaningful hot food paid or unpaid. Paper cups are here to stay and due to the fact there won’t be a dishwasher. It’s a sandwich or bag of crisps I’m afraid. Lounges are unlikely to reopen and the MD said he’s happy with the offering in first class as it matches the requirement of the journey length. The galley in a 222 is long due to ovens, toasters, microwaves, dishwashers etc, the 810’s are going to have the ‘Ryanair’ of galleys/1st class.

 

[800001]

Also it’s worth remembering that the galleys on the 810’s have been so stripped out to the bare minimum that they literally have a microwave. They won’t be able to do any meaningful hot food paid or unpaid. Paper cups are here to stay and due to the fact there won’t be a dishwasher. It’s a sandwich or bag of crisps I’m afraid. Lounges are unlikely to reopen and the MD said he’s happy with the offering in first class as it matches the requirement of the journey length. The galley in a 222 is long due to ovens, toasters, microwaves, dishwashers etc, the 810’s are going to have the ‘Ryanair’ of galleys/1st class.

Does a 222 have a dishwasher?

None of the hitachi fleet have dishwashers, all dirty crockery, cutlery and equipment is off loaded at the end of each trip and swapped out for clean.

 

[liamf656]

Does a 222 have a dishwasher?

They do indeed, and still get used to clean the coffee pots

 

[QSK19]

Also it’s worth remembering that the galleys on the 810’s have been so stripped out to the bare minimum that they literally have a microwave. They won’t be able to do any meaningful hot food paid or unpaid. Paper cups are here to stay and due to the fact there won’t be a dishwasher. It’s a sandwich or bag of crisps I’m afraid. Lounges are unlikely to reopen and the MD said he’s happy with the offering in first class as it matches the requirement of the journey length. The galley in a 222 is long due to ovens, toasters, microwaves, dishwashers etc, the 810’s are going to have the ‘Ryanair’ of galleys/1st class.

Oh dear - once again something symbolic of the MML being the poorer relation of the ECML and WCML.

I absolutely get the fact that the journeys are shorter on the MML; but there could have been at least a shred of respect for the folk who pay a lot of money to travel along the line.

 

[800001]

They do indeed, and still get used to clean the coffee pots

Learn something new everydayb

 

[Aspen90]

Oh dear - once again something symbolic of the MML being the poorer relation of the ECML and WCML.

I absolutely get the fact that the journeys are shorter on the MML; but there could have been at least a shred of respect for the folk who pay a lot of money to travel along the line.

I cringe when I hear the cost of the first class tickets people have paid for and when people get on and expect LNER and Avanti level of first class… Chef? Well yeah but it’s chef Mike… Rowave. On top of this you have to pay for alcohol and cans of pop!

 

[Energy]

I thought the driving vehicles were still going to be trailers, albeit with generators? With the power they generate being sent to motors in the middle cars?

Yep fixed - the motors are higher rated to compensate for this.

I think we would need to see a plan of the unit to confirm that. Your version suggests that if one diesel engine were to fail, the train would not move very fast, which on MML could be very costly.

I'd expect it to be slightly slower, the other engine for that motor car to be driven harder, or both.

810s have the pantograph in the same coaches as all other class 8Xx vehicles, the end cars.

Thanks, what does the transformer feed? I thought the motor cars draw of the 25kv bus.

 

[Rob F]

Does the gen-set under the driving vehicle drive one bogie of the motored car and its own gen set drive the other bogie, or are the outputs of the 2 gen-sets combined?