Could a class 124 be rebuilt??

[MK Tom]

I may be about to inadvertantly start a new preservation group...

It occurs to me thinking about first-gen DMUs that the class 124 trans-pennine units are one of the most liked and missed classes and one of the sorest losses of the last few decades. It also occurs to me that they're structurally more similar to your average mark 1 carriage than most first-gen DMUs were. Would it be possible for a group along the same lines as the Baby Deltic group to embark on a project to re-create one by manufacturing a new cab and attaching it to a re-engineered mark 1, with traction equipment borrowed from another DMU class or two? I'm only thinking one driving trailer, although you could do an entire unit with more money. At the end of the day anything that's been built once can be built again but I'm thinking of a project practical for preservationists to attempt.

Let the speculation begin!

 

[ElectronicaL33]

Now that would be nice! I never got a see one as a kid spotting at Derby I presume asbestos finished them off?

 

[headshot119]

Underfloor equipment would not be difficult. As far as I can tell they just had the standard Leyland engines, and presumably all the other equipment was the same.

 

[ainsworth74]

One thing that springs to mind is that such a project might struggle for funding. Would there be enough interest to fund such a project? It seems that it's easier to rally people around building locomotives (especially steam) than it is to units. Also there is an issue with future earnings, a locomotive can haul a railtour of 10+ carriages of paying people a unit not so much.

Not that I think it's necessarily a bad idea, just one that would be hard to get off the ground.

 

[MK Tom]

One thing that springs to mind is that such a project might struggle for funding. Would there be enough interest to fund such a project? It seems that it's easier to rally people around building locomotives (especially steam) than it is to units. Also there is an issue with future earnings, a locomotive can haul a railtour of 10+ carriages of paying people a unit not so much.

Not that I think it's necessarily a bad idea, just one that would be hard to get off the ground.

Yeah, but that's never stopped die-hard preservationists before! I think first-gen DMUs have a fairly untapped reserve of admirers that's evidenced by the turnout to things like the SVR's DMU gala. A single driving trailer could be used as part of a hybrid set on a preserved line or a complete unit could be done with mainline running in mind (or as a hybrid unit with something from another class). DMUs are popular with the shorter and less moneyed preserved lines as well as those wanting to run a more frequent service so I don't think there'd be any issues finding it a home. I reckon were a class 124 rebuild group or something to that effect to be launched it would attract a lot more support than one might expect. Or the project could be launched by an existing DMU preservation group.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The problem with heritage lines is that their main income doesnt come from enthusiasts it comes from people bringing their kids to see steam trains not an old DMU. I would love to see one never did and they looked like good units but, i dont think its economical, unless fo course you get a very rich person who doesnt want return on investment.

 

[Penmorfa]

You could always use a cab front from one of the Glasgow blue trains, class 303. There's one in Coatbridge museum sadly in need of a lot of TLC. But I think like previous posters, that getting funds and enthusiasm would be the hard part. I remember the units when they were in green livery and they were'nt that great, the Swindon 123's were far better units, of course the two classes later got combined into 4 car sets.

 

[MK Tom]

The Swindon sets are even more like mark 1s... I'd be just as happy to see one of those done (or a combined set). The 303 cabs are different aren't they?

 

[Penmorfa]

The Swindon sets are even more like mark 1s... I'd be just as happy to see one of those done (or a combined set). The 303 cabs are different aren't they?

The Swindon ones had B4 bogies, best riding DMU's ever. A class 303 cab would just be a start, lots of differences. Headcode box, centre window for example but could form a basis for conversion. Whether you could butcher a Mark 1 corridor end to make a class 123 I don't know but it would make a novel DVT

 

[MK Tom]

If you compare http://www.flickr.com/photos/philstephenrichards/5931457833/ with http://www.flickr.com/photos/d9006/5086380173/ they seem like completely different designs to me... I wonder what the cost would be of constructing a 124 cab entirely from scratch? They are a hell of a lot less complex to build than a modern unit, plus there will be components that can be recycled even if we couldn't borrow a 303 cab.

The 123s are another matter entirely... the fact that they have coridoor connections and therefore maybe could be used within a LHCS rake might make them more attractive as a choice to mount a project like this with.

 

[Yew]

The 123s are another matter entirely... the fact that they have coridoor connections and therefore maybe could be used within a LHCS rake might make them more attractive as a choice to mount a project like this with.

Could the other units be modified to work as a Dvt/DBSO?

 

[Penmorfa]

If you compare http://www.flickr.com/photos/philstephenrichards/5931457833/ with http://www.flickr.com/photos/d9006/5086380173/ they seem like completely different designs to me... I wonder what the cost would be of constructing a 124 cab entirely from scratch? They are a hell of a lot less complex to build than a modern unit, plus there will be components that can be recycled even if we couldn't borrow a 303 cab.

Bear in mind that the 303 has the later type of window, originally it had the wrap round ones as shown in the class 124 photo.

 

[MK Tom]

Bear in mind that the 303 has the later type of window, originally it had the wrap round ones as shown in the class 124 photo.

Yeah I know, I was looking more at the curvature of the metal. I'd love to be corrected but to me they look quite different.

 

[ElectronicaL33]

Yeah, but that's never stopped die-hard preservationists before! I think first-gen DMUs have a fairly untapped reserve of admirers that's evidenced by the turnout to things like the SVR's DMU gala. A single driving trailer could be used as part of a hybrid set on a preserved line or a complete unit could be done with mainline running in mind (or as a hybrid unit with something from another class). DMUs are popular with the shorter and less moneyed preserved lines as well as those wanting to run a more frequent service so I don't think there'd be any issues finding it a home. I reckon were a class 124 rebuild group or something to that effect to be launched it would attract a lot more support than one might expect. Or the project could be launched by an existing DMU preservation group.

I agree, i believe there is a market given the unrivalled views you can get out of 'Daisy' & co. Am i right in saying there isnt currently a mainline registered first gen unit out there? apart from departmental ones & the chiltern bubble car? Money however would be my concern tho The Midland Railway had (on my last visit in Oct) a large number of 101,108 & 117 cars in need of some urgent TLC, so until they get treated, building new/refurbed might not be an option :cry: unless i win big in tomorrow nights euro draw

 

[MK Tom]

I agree, i believe there is a market given the unrivalled views you can get out of 'Daisy' & co. Am i right in saying there isnt currently a mainline registered first gen unit out there? apart from departmental ones & the chiltern bubble car? Money however would be my concern tho The Midland Railway had (on my last visit in Oct) a large number of 101,108 & 117 cars in need of some urgent TLC, so until they get treated, building new/refurbed might not be an option :cry: unless i win big in tomorrow nights euro draw

Well the same could be said of the Baby Deltic and the sidings full of dead and dying locomotives on preserved lines across the country. That might be true if we had a national preservation society, but different groups work on different things and I reckon if a group to rebuild a 124 or 123 were formed the membership would swell enough for a fundraising effort to be viable once a working plan was in place.

As far as I know the only heritage DMUs on the main line at the moment are 1001 and the three class 121s that are in use with TOCs (not counting departmentals).

 

[ElectronicaL33]

Well the same could be said of the Baby Deltic and the sidings full of dead and dying locomotives on preserved lines across the country. That might be true if we had a national preservation society, but different groups work on different things and I reckon if a group to rebuild a 124 or 123 were formed the membership would swell enough for a fundraising effort to be viable once a working plan was in place.

As far as I know the only heritage DMUs on the main line at the moment are 1001 and the three class 121s that are in use with TOCs (not counting departmentals).

Right I see, ive joined here to get upto scratch on current events, my knowledge is a bit rusty at the moment well any such group would get my backing!

By the way, the arriva tw 121 is still in service? i knew about Chiltern's 121 down at Princess Risborough, & where is the other unit if you dont mind me asking

 

[MK Tom]

ATW have 121032, Chiltern have 121020 and 121034. The latter is in BR Green with Chiltern branding. Such an amazing company!

Well from how this thread has gone so far most people seem to think they'd like it but don't think enough other people would. If all the people who feel that way get together, how many would there be?

Further discussion on the similarities/differences between 124 and 303 cabs would also be insightful

 

[RichmondCommu]

The Midland Railway had (on my last visit in Oct) a large number of 101,108 & 117 cars in need of some urgent TLC, so until they get treated, building new/refurbed might not be an option :cry: unless i win big in tomorrow nights euro draw

I think you'll find that some of those are now likely to be spares donors and then cut up due to their condition.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

ATW have 121032, Chiltern have 121020 and 121034. The latter is in BR Green with Chiltern branding. Such an amazing company!

Yes but they are awful trains to travel on and thankfully only seem to be used sparingly.

 

[route:oxford]

A lot of things could be fun.

The easiest thing to do would be to order a brand new 6 car 172 and design a bespoke front end that as closely resembled a 124 as is permitted with current legislation.

Three single plug doors spaced down each coach side, 2nd last coach with 1/3rd & 2/3rd doors for "guards van" area (cycle storage) and high quality impaired area with accessible loo. Maybe a "griddle zone" in one of the coaches too...

Have it painted in BR heritage DMU colours.

But

Would anyone want to hire in a 100mph capable 6 car dmu with excellent acceleration, good fuel economy, low RA index (and low corresponding track access charges), impaired access, cycle store and multiple doors for rapid boarding at busy stations? It has to earn its keep...

 

[Peter Sarf]

The class 123s and 124 were Swindon built I think. So where the 4-CEPs and 4-BEPs (SouthEastern EMUs) iirc. The class 309s were also Swindon built and were possibly identical to look at. I feel there are some coaches frome the 309s still around so perhaps it would be easiest to adapt one/more trailers to have the engines a 123/124 had. One downside is that this would then mean we have a heritage B I - M O D E but it would mean a heritage EMU with the capability to wander off the electrified network. The 4-CEPS might have been built with one centre car that was powered, it was certainly true of some 3rd ral EMUs. If so then it would even be able to do the Southern if a bit of a 4-CEP still exists though they were re-glazed !.

 

[Helvellyn]

The class 123s and 124 were Swindon built I think. So where the 4-CEPs and 4-BEPs (SouthEastern EMUs) iirc. The class 309s were also Swindon built and were possibly identical to look at. I feel there are some coaches frome the 309s still around so perhaps it would be easiest to adapt one/more trailers to have the engines a 123/124 had. One downside is that this would then mean we have a heritage B I - M O D E but it would mean a heritage EMU with the capability to wander off the electrified network. The 4-CEPS might have been built with one centre car that was powered, it was certainly true of some 3rd ral EMUs. If so then it would even be able to do the Southern if a bit of a 4-CEP still exists though they were re-glazed !.

4-CEPs and 4-BEPs were built at Eastleigh (on frames from Ashford) and refurbished by BREL at Swindon.

The Class 309s were built at York and refurbished by BRML at Wolverton.

The Class 123 units had interiors closely modelled on the late build Mk 1 LHCS. However, only ten units were built, and they wer split into two sub-classes (five of each) depending on whether they had a buffet or not.

Interestingly, the only first generation DMUs built to Mk 1 LHCS dimensions (cross-section wise) were the Cravens 105/112/113 units.

 

[Peter Sarf]

4-CEPs and 4-BEPs were built at Eastleigh (on frames from Ashford) and refurbished by BREL at Swindon.

The Class 309s were built at York and refurbished by BRML at Wolverton.

The Class 123 units had interiors closely modelled on the late build Mk 1 LHCS. However, only ten units were built, and they wer split into two sub-classes (five of each) depending on whether they had a buffet or not.

Interestingly, the only first generation DMUs built to Mk 1 LHCS dimensions (cross-section wise) were the Cravens 105/112/113 units.

Well apart from all my facts being wrong would it all cobble together as the most feasible mainline MU project ?. I recall the CEPs and BEPs were refurbished at Swindon but I never realised the 309s were not built at Swindon. Does that mean the 309s are not that similar ?.

I suppose that means Swindon quite possibly never built anything electric. Was all Swindon built stuff diesel mechanical and, more importantly, diesel hydraulic (my beloved Westerns) ?.

 

[MK Tom]

Nobody's really answered my question about the 124s and the 303s...

I think 309/123 is a similar question really; broadly similar appearance but not for any common design lineage, a bit like how Irish 2600 class DMUs look a bit like our 158s. That doesn't mean that their parts wouldn't be useful in a rebuild project though.

 

[colchesterken]

No No No lets see a proper 309 rebuilt I loved them running to Stowmarket on the 17 50 from liv st

I think there are enough odd coaches about to put one together..but must be in jaffa cake red or BR blue none of the livery they used when they went to Manchester

 

[MK Tom]

There are two preserved 309s that are being rebuilt back into their original conditions...

My main hope in starting this thread was to pull together ideas and people interested in rebuilding part or all of a class 124 or 123 or creating some kind of way of bringing them back another way.

 

[John55]

I may be about to inadvertantly start a new preservation group...

It occurs to me thinking about first-gen DMUs that the class 124 trans-pennine units are one of the most liked and missed classes and one of the sorest losses of the last few decades. It also occurs to me that they're structurally more similar to your average mark 1 carriage than most first-gen DMUs were. Would it be possible for a group along the same lines as the Baby Deltic group to embark on a project to re-create one by manufacturing a new cab and attaching it to a re-engineered mark 1, with traction equipment borrowed from another DMU class or two? I'm only thinking one driving trailer, although you could do an entire unit with more money. At the end of the day anything that's been built once can be built again but I'm thinking of a project practical for preservationists to attempt.

Let the speculation begin!

I can only assume the enthusiasm for these wretched units is due to those involved not having travelled on them on a regular basis if at all.

As they were built at Swindon in the late 50s or early 60s were they integral construction? If they were this would actually make them much closer to the Mk2 coach than the the Mk1 coach. The earlier Swindon Cross Country DMU vehicles were the first integral construction vehicle in the BR era so it does seem possible that Swindon continued with this style of construction.

When I travelled on them one never had time to look at the construction as either you were looking for a replacement train as the TP had broken down or were admiring the activity of the fitters at Leeds who always seemed to descend on the motor coaches, lift the hatches in the floor and try and fix something.