LNER Harrogate via York v via Leeds

[Gathursty]

The current LNER service to Harrogate goes to Leeds then Horsforth and on to Harrogate.

There is also a route from York to Harrogate via Knaresborough.

There is more population via Leeds and Horsforth but the route is more direct via York and doesn't require a reversal at Leeds. However York to Harrogate via Knaresborough is unelectrified.

Would you rather LNER continue with Harrogate via Leeds or change to go via York?

 

[HST43257]

Not only is York to Harrogate unelectrified (neither is Leeds to Harrogate), it’s also single track (for most of Poppleton to Knaresborouh, whereas the rest is double). The route is at a sensible level of maximum capacity, with a usually busy half hourly service, and you’d be crazy to do anything with it.

I mean my view is that Harrogate shouldn’t get an LNER service at all (perhaps give or take the old morning and evening ones). Fill the route with locals to have a proper high frequency thing going. 4tph Leeds to Harrogate, of which 2tph continue to York. Surely not rocket science

 

[skyhigh]

Good luck fitting it through the single lines and across Skelton Jn without having to knock anything else out.

 

[bluenoxid]

As stated above, the route is mainly single track from Knaresborough to Poppleton. From a selfish perspective, I would appreciate the benefits of it shifting to double track as any delays are compounded by the current set up.

The other issues to consider are:

The reduction of the local service if no upgrades are installed (the 30 minute frequency service is a recent and very useful addition)
Level crossing down times, particularly Starbeck High Street if the trains are added on
The volume of locally controlled signalling still in existence (how many people have to turn up to work before a train can run Harrogate to York)
Pathing through and north of York because the trains terminating at York usually use a bay.
What happens with local trains and staff whilst this train runs through (park at York, terminate at Knaresborough, sit at Leeds)

I am ambivalent on the existing London-Harrogate trains but just want to highlight that I was on a northern rail train last week that went fast Harrogate to Leeds due to a significant delay and that was very quick compared to the normal journey. If that was normally achieved, I would be very happy.

 

[stevieinselby]

As well as the difficulty of pathing additional trains between York and Knaresborough – considerable work had to be done on the line just to increase the Northern service to half-hourly – there are a couple of other issues:

• While at the moment there are trains running KGX–YRK, the plan AIUI is to extend those trains to Newcastle next year, so there won't be any York terminators to extend to Harrogate.
• Passenger numbers between Harrogate and Leeds are higher than passenger numbers between Harrogate and York, so the LNER service provides some additional capacity on that route. If it was diverted to run via York then Northern might need to reinstate their semi-fasts to Harrogate to mitigate the withdrawal of LNER services, putting more demand on the network.

 

[A S Leib]

While at the moment there are trains running KGX–YRK, the plan AIUI is to extend those trains to Newcastle next year, so there won't be any York terminators to extend to Harrogate.

With the Middlesbrough service running in place of a third Newcastle one that hour, or as well as it?

 

[HST43257]

With the Middlesbrough service running in place of a third Newcastle one that hour, or as well as it?

i believe York is going from 2.5tph to 3.5tph so I think it’s 2tph Edinburgh, 1tph Newcastle, 0.5tph Middlesborough

 

[billio]

North Yorkshire Authority have plans for a new, large residential area in the vicinity of Cattal Station and Kirk Hammerton. I presume this is partly justified by the existing rail links to Harrogate and York. The train will be significantly quicker than a car.

There is also considerable residential development planned at Flaxby Park next to the A1M. There used to be a station nearby called Goldsborough. The development company are promoting re-opening of this station as it would also supply a parkway station easily accessed from the A1M,

When I travel on this line, which is not very often, the trains always seem to have plenty of passengers, especially when school students are traveling. So it might make sense to improve the capacity of the York - Harrogate line. Given some of the type of housing they hope to build (meaning expensive) it might also make sense to have a few, direct London services.

 

[HST43257]

The key is that nothing more can happen via Knaresborough, new stations or new service, until the route is doubled. If stations like the Flaxby Parkway or one in the newish housing development at Knaresborough East were opened, I’d strongly call for a further frequency upgrade, at peaks at least. You can’t make York to Harrogate a journey with tons and tons of stops, so I reckon there needs to be a push to serve as many developing communities as possible, then pop in some fasts for Knaresborough and Harrogate as well.

 

[deltic08]

North Yorkshire Authority have plans for a new, large residential area in the vicinity of Cattal Station and Kirk Hammerton. I presume this is partly justified by the existing rail links to Harrogate and York. The train will be significantly quicker than a car.

There is also considerable residential development planned at Flaxby Park next to the A1M. There used to be a station nearby called Goldsborough. The development company are promoting re-opening of this station as it would also supply a parkway station easily accessed from the A1M,

When I travel on this line, which is not very often, the trains always seem to have plenty of passengers, especially when school students are traveling. So it might make sense to improve the capacity of the York - Harrogate line. Given some of the type of housing they hope to build (meaning expensive) it might also make sense to have a few, direct London services.

Flaxby and reopened station at Goldsborough has fallen through. Cattal is still on the cards.
NYCC had the money to redouble Knaresborough to Cattal. NR were able to provide 2tph by installing tokenless block in 2022 for only £9.3m and maintaining single line. Problem now is that 2tph is maximum achieved whereas doubling for only £4m extra would have allowed 3tph Harrogate-York. NYCC were conned into paying for something NR should have paid for.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Good luck fitting it through the single lines and across Skelton Jn without having to knock anything else out.

The issues with Skelton Jct are being addressed with a new line adjacent to the running line all the way from Skelton to York!

Not that I agree with it as I would rather use the Scarborough platforms and link the Scarborough line to the Harrogate line!

 

[skyhigh]

The issues with Skelton Jct are being addressed with a new line adjacent to the running line all the way from Skelton to York!

Not any time soon...

Not that I agree with it as I would rather use the Scarborough platforms and link the Scarborough line to the Harrogate line!

Why?

 

[Halifaxlad]

Why?

Dont know really ‍♂️ apart from..

segregating all Harrogate services from the ECML

removing all crossing conflicts with regards to the Harrogate line and York North throat.

removing the need to build another platform when York already has enough...

If I scratch a little more I could probably think of a few other reasons ?

 

[zwk500]

Not that I agree with it as I would rather use the Scarborough platforms and link the Scarborough line to the Harrogate line!

More importantly, how? The existing junction to the Scarborough line is very tightly curved.

segregating all Harrogate services from the ECML
removing all crossing conflicts with regards to the Harrogate line and York North throat.

Are you proposing some massive grade-separated north curve?