pullman dmu,s

[westernpunk]

did the western and the midland pullman units ever cross paths in revenue service, i suspect not , or perhaps even on trial

 

[hexagon789]

did the western and the midland pullman units ever cross paths in revenue service, i suspect not , or perhaps even on trial

Yes, because the Midland units later went to the Western Region after the WCML electrification was completed and a new electric-hauled Manchester Pullman with specially built Mk2 vehicles was inaugurated.

The two six-car LMR sets had some vehicles declassified (they were First only but the WR sets had Second Class) and MU jumpers were fitted on the nose to allow them to operate as a 12-car set.

They were used mainly on the morning Up Bristol Pullman, they then split the sets at Paddington with one forming a short-lived Oxford fill-in turn, the other going empty to Old Oak Common.

They then rejoined in the afternoon to form the evening down Bristol Pullman.

The Railcar website has a good amount of detail on the Blue Pullman operations:

Blue Pullman LMR Operations

The history of Diesel Multiple Units (DMUs / railcars) in Britain.

railcar.co.uk

Services End​

Always seen as a temporary measure until the introduction of faster electric services from Euston, the advancement of electrification saw their LMR duties end in April 1966. The last Midland Pullam services ran on Friday 15th, replaced by an electric service to Euston on Monday 18th.

In advance of this thought had been given to alternative services for the sets, and a set powered by M60090/1 ran a test return journey from Leeds to Kings Cross on the 16th October 1965, with the possiblility of them moving to Hull - Kings Cross services, with the comments in the linked image noted that a shore supply was fitted in Botanic Gardens for this. There was also proposals for use on Waterloo to Bournemouth trains.

They would ultimately move to the Western Region.

Blue Pullman WR Operations

The history of Diesel Multiple Units (DMUs / railcars) in Britain.

railcar.co.uk

After the LMR services ended the WR received the two 6-car sets, and for the same reason that the LMR service was withdrawn (a better electric service from Euston), the Birmingham & Wolverhampton services were withdrawn in March 1967. In anticipation of this, the Operations Research Department was asked to look at the options available to the WR in using the 36 vehicles. The report (no. O77 dated May 1965) concluded that "From this general survey of the problem it is not obvious that the Western Region can make profitable use of all the 36 existing Blue Pullman cars." It did mention that the only additional service that they might be able to operate would be taking over "The Golden Hind" on the South West route, with a fill in turn from Paddington to Oxford. It also thought there could be potential in reciprocal trains on the Bristol and South Wales trains but with a danger of going beyond the "saturation point" for Pullmans on these routes.

It also examined eight different possible formations for the 36 cars and possible conversions.

In the end when the LMR cars did arrive there was a new non-stop Oxford service which covered the 63 1/2 miles in one hour, starting on the 6th March 1967. They were also used on additional Bristol trains which stopped at Bath. The "Bristol Pullman" made use of both 6-car sets on the 08:45 from Bristol and 17:45 return. Finally, there was a new 09:00 service from Paddington to Swansea, the return leaving at 16:20.

When the LMR cars were transferred to the WR, it was felt that there was not enough capacity in a 6-car set. The two units passed through Swindon Works to receive modifications to the bottom of the cab end to give unhindered access to the coupling/drawhook. Multiple working jumpers were fitted, just below the windowscreens on the far sides. After conversion they emerged in their original livery with a yellow panel added on the cabs, and the "Midland" on the power cars sides ommited. None of the WR sets were converted.

Also, the final three sets in traffic all consisted of a mix of ex-LMR and WR vehicles. Two had an ex-LMR power car replace a WR one in an otherwise usual formation, the 3rd set was formed of a WR half-set married to 2/3rds of an ex-LMR set.

 

[westernpunk]

Yes, because the Midland units later went to the Western Region after the WCML electrification was completed and a new electric-hauled Manchester Pullman with specially built Mk2 vehicles was inaugurated.

The two six-car LMR sets had some vehicles declassified (they were First only but the WR sets had Second Class) and MU jumpers were fitted on the nose to allow them to operate as a 12-car set.

They were used mainly on the morning Up Bristol Pullman, they then split the sets at Paddington with one forming a short-lived Oxford fill-in turn, the other going empty to Old Oak Common.

They then rejoined in the afternoon to form the evening down Bristol Pullman.

The Railcar website has a good amount of detail on the Blue Pullman operations:

Blue Pullman LMR Operations

The history of Diesel Multiple Units (DMUs / railcars) in Britain.

railcar.co.uk

Blue Pullman WR Operations

The history of Diesel Multiple Units (DMUs / railcars) in Britain.

railcar.co.uk

Also, the final three sets in traffic all consisted of a mix of ex-LMR and WR vehicles. Two had an ex-LMR power car replace a WR one in an otherwise usual formation, the 3rd set was formed of a WR half-set married to 2/3rds of an ex-LMR set.

thanks hexagon 789 very interesting
were the engines the same as class 22 or 29

 

[david1212]

thanks hexagon 789 very interesting
were the engines the same as class 22 or 29

From https://railcar.co.uk/type/blue-pullman/motor-cars

Power for the main and auxiliary generators was supplied by the NBL/MAN 12-cylinder vee-type supercharged diesel engine of type L12V18/21BS having a 12-hr. rating of 1,000 hp at 1,500rpm. Cylinder dimensions were 180mm bore and 210mm stroke. Other locomotives fitted with the L12V 18 21 engines at the time included the D6300 locos (rated at rated at 1530rpm) and the early Warships (rated at 1445hp).

So yes to Class 22 and hence I presume Class 21 too. Also Class 41 D6xx.
Class 29 were Class 21 with the NBL/MAN engine replaced with a Paxman Ventura V12 engine.

 

[randyrippley]

thanks hexagon 789 very interesting
were the engines the same as class 22 or 29

you mean 21 or 22.

If I remember correctly they were German built with German peripherals so more reliable than the NBL built ones

 

[Harvester]

did the western and the midland pullman units ever cross paths in revenue service, i suspect not , or perhaps even on trial

A WR Blue Birmingham Pullman set worked one of two Rugby specials from Coventry to West Hartlepool for a Durham v Warwickshire rugby county championship final on 13th March 1965. The route was via New Street (rev)-Lichfield-Burton-Sheffield-York-Northallerton. In contrast the other special was worked by Britannia 70020 which ran via Nuneaton and the LNWR & Midland joint line to Burton. The Brit was serviced at West Hartlepool (51C) but the Pullman set was reported to have travelled north to Heaton for servicing. It would be interesting to know what the crew rostering was for that day!

 

[westernpunk]

this must be one of the most unusual pullman unit workings, i remember seeing it in one of bernard mills books cant remember which one

https://ocean.exacteditions.com/issues/115661/page/4.pdf

 

[6Gman]

A WR Blue Birmingham Pullman set worked one of two Rugby specials from Coventry to West Hartlepool for a Durham v Warwickshire rugby county championship final on 13th March 1965. The route was via New Street (rev)-Lichfield-Burton-Sheffield-York-Northallerton. In contrast the other special was worked by Britannia 70020 which ran via Nuneaton and the LNWR & Midland joint line to Burton. The Brit was serviced at West Hartlepool (51C) but the Pullman set was reported to have travelled north to Heaton for servicing. It would be interesting to know what the crew rostering was for that day!

Saltley Seagulls would be first into the gaffer's office.

"I could do that job boss. I sign York, went to Darlington last year and once met a man from Hartlepool."

 

[Taunton]

did the western and the midland pullman units ever cross paths in revenue service, i suspect not , or perhaps even on trial

A WR Blue Birmingham Pullman set worked one of two Rugby specials from Coventry to West Hartlepool for a Durham v Warwickshire rugby county championship final on 13th March 1965. The route was via New Street (rev)-Lichfield-Burton-Sheffield-York-Northallerton.

The Birmingham Pullman was based at Wolverhampton Oxley, which after 1963 was London Midland Region, but was it seems still regarded as a WR unit.

Although the excursion described did cross the Manchester Pullman route around Derby, neither regular service operated on Saturdays (and hence were available for specials, which among other things gave welcome overtime for the Pullman crews). They did seem to turn up on premium specials to Wembley, possibly the best chance of the two being together.

The regular morning Birmingham and the South Wales services were due into Paddington at the same time, and if in sight of one another when their routes merged at Old Oak seemed to delight in running in absolutely parallel, cab to cab, the Birmingham train on the Reliefs. There were multiple photographs of this in magazines of the era.

 

[norbitonflyer]

did the western and the midland pullman units ever cross paths in revenue service, i suspect not , or perhaps even on trial

They were all built by Metro Cammell at Washwood Heath, so would have been together when they were built and probably on trial.

Diversion of the Midland Pullman via the Trent Valley, let alone Birmingham, would have been rare - the whole point of the Midland service was to run a premium service whilst the WCML was disrupted for electrification work, and diversions from the Midland route to the WCML on weekdays (when the Pullmans ran) would have been rare indeed.

 

[randyrippley]

I've always thought there was a missed opportunity with these.
Replace the MAN motors with Venturas, add adapted mk2 coaches to pad them out to 8-car sets, refit them as standard (non-Pullman) interiors and you could have have a dedicated five set fleet for an all-day business shuttle service, such as Waterloo-Salisbury, Paddington-Reading, Glasgow-Edinburgh, Kings Cross-Cambridge
Just a shame there wouldn't have been room for Valentas in them.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I've always thought there was a missed opportunity with these.
Replace the MAN motors with Venturas, add adapted mk2 coaches to pad them out to 8-car sets, refit them as standard (non-Pullman) interiors and you could have have a dedicated five set fleet for an all-day business shuttle service, such as Waterloo-Salisbury, Paddington-Reading, Glasgow-Edinburgh, Kings Cross-Cambridge
Just a shame there wouldn't have been room for Valentas in them.

They were a microfleet (only five units) and had a number of gremlins as well as the engines - and I don't think the Ventura was the answer: if it had been the Class 29s might have lasted a bit longer. (The Class 21s had the same MAN engine as the Pullmans, so if a Ventura could replace an MAN in a 21 to make a 29, presumably the same substition would have been possible in a Pullman)
Ride quality was also an issue.
And having the sets operated as suggested would have been a nightmare for availablity: one in each region (except the LMR) would mean 80% reliability - not impossible, but where would you keep the spare?

 

[randyrippley]

They were a microfleet (only five units) and had a number of gremlins as well as the engines - and I don't think the Ventura was the answer: if it had been the Class 29s might have lasted a bit longer. (The Class 21s had the same MAN engine as the Pullmans, so if a Ventura could replace an MAN in a 21 to make a 29, presumably the same substition would have been possible in a Pullman)
Ride quality was also an issue.
And having the sets operated as suggested would have been a nightmare for availablity: one in each region (except the LMR) would mean 80% reliability - not impossible, but where would you keep the spare?

you misunderstand me - I meant keep them all together on one shortish route running an all-day intensive service.
The routes I mentioned were alternatives, not all intended to be served

 

[Rescars]

They were a microfleet (only five units) and had a number of gremlins as well as the engines - and I don't think the Ventura was the answer: if it had been the Class 29s might have lasted a bit longer. (The Class 21s had the same MAN engine as the Pullmans, so if a Ventura could replace an MAN in a 21 to make a 29, presumably the same substition would have been possible in a Pullman)
Ride quality was also an issue.
And having the sets operated as suggested would have been a nightmare for availablity: one in each region (except the LMR) would mean 80% reliability - not impossible, but where would you keep the spare?

If my limited experience counts, ride was an issue. I travelled second class on the Bristol Pullman about a month before the service was discontinued. As I recall, the service was great, the tableware was lovely but keeping tea in the cup was a serious challenge!

 

[Helvellyn]

I've always thought there was a missed opportunity with these.
Replace the MAN motors with Venturas, add adapted mk2 coaches to pad them out to 8-car sets, refit them as standard (non-Pullman) interiors and you could have have a dedicated five set fleet for an all-day business shuttle service, such as Waterloo-Salisbury, Paddington-Reading, Glasgow-Edinburgh, Kings Cross-Cambridge
Just a shame there wouldn't have been room for Valentas in them.

If they had been retained (and various reasons given why not) the logical answer might have been on the ECML to keep a dedicated Pullman Service alongside the HSTs. But only Manchester justified that by the late 1970s with the Mark 2 loco-hauled sets.

 

[Irascible]

If they had been retained (and various reasons given why not) the logical answer might have been on the ECML to keep a dedicated Pullman Service alongside the HSTs. But only Manchester justified that by the late 1970s with the Mark 2 loco-hauled sets.

Bit slow though, surely? weren't they limited to 90mph? given they already had apparent ride issues, going faster was not really an option...

Engine installs can't necessarily be taken to mean other installs of the same engine would have problems, a vast amount depends on the arrangement of the other parts.

 

[randyrippley]

Bit slow though, surely? weren't they limited to 90mph? given they already had apparent ride issues, going faster was not really an option...

Which is why I thought they'd be better on a short intensive shuttle service