Scotrail Guards Dispute

[Falcon1200]

If the second person on the train is not a guard then it's a DOO train. It’s DOO by the back door.

No, it is simply DOO, a method of working used on multiple routes in the West of Scotland since 1986, and as that is the case there is really no argument, other than job and union power protection, against extending it to other suitable routes; In which category Glasgow Central to Barrhead and East Kilbride certainly fit.

 

[Ashley Hill]

No, it is simply DOO, a method of working used on multiple routes in the West of Scotland since 1986, and as that is the case there is really no argument, other than job and union power protection, against extending it to other suitable routes; In which category Glasgow Central to Barrhead and East Kilbride certainly fit.

But if there is no money to save as a guard will apparently still be on the train what is the point of manangement trying to force this through?

 

[Carlisle]

There is currently a system in place for guards & drivers to work together with regards to door control for these trains on other lines. That is known as Driver Open Conductor Conductor Close Operation (DOCCO).

Scotrail agreed DOCCO around 2016 however i think you’ll find they’d wanted, DOO with a guaranteed safety critical conductor.but problems agreeing dispatch procedures with both unions alongside the protracted Southern Strikes opted to concede to DOCCO. Prior to that concession the RMT hadn’t objected to the Strathclyde Manning agreement’s extension to any newly electrified routes in the region apart from Bathgate claiming it was well outside the boundary .

 

[sannox]

Seems a strange one - don't understand why it isn't just following other routes under the Strathclyde Manning Agreement which when the Cl156s went, the electric trains were introduced with ticket examiners.

To be honest, on the East Kilbride and Barrhead lines, the frequent stops makes selling tickets nearly impossible whilst working doors - I think EK used to have additional staff to try and help.

 

[Falcon1200]

But if there is no money to save as a guard will apparently still be on the train what is the point of manangement trying to force this through?

A valid question!

Seems a strange one - don't understand why it isn't just following other routes under the Strathclyde Manning Agreement which when the Cl156s went, the electric trains were introduced with ticket examiners.

Indeed, especially as the proposed method of working is causing industrial strife anyway.

 

[Kite159]

But if there is no money to save as a guard will apparently still be on the train what is the point of manangement trying to force this through?

Isn't the salary of a Ticket Examiner less than the salary of a guard?

In my eyes, on routes like the Barrhead & East Kilbride the stops are so close together the guard rarely has time to do revenue between stations with a second member of staff sometimes put on some services to solely do revenue.

 

[Cross City]

Is there any news on what disruption can be expected on the routes listed? Would've thought Scotrail would have something out by now but their website just says.

"ScotRail will update customers on the impact of this industrial action soon, both here, and on our social media channels."

 

[sannox]

Is there any news on what disruption can be expected on the routes listed? Would've thought Scotrail would have something out by now but their website just says.

"ScotRail will update customers on the impact of this industrial action soon, both here, and on our social media channels."

Yeah seems late, but I guess they are trying to work out what they can cover. Scotrail's Journey Planner and Realtime Trains shows a reductions to the service particularly early mornings before 8am and evenings post 6pm on East Kilbride (30 min service) and Kilmarnock (hourly stopper). Nothing showing south of Kilmarnock to buy either.

 

[Carlisle]

. Nothing showing south of Kilmarnock to buy either.

Surprising if true given they managed a near full service on the Dumfries line during the 2010 Airdrie- Bathgate dispute when virtually all Scotrail guards were striking .

 

[Donhamer]

Surprising if true given they managed a near full service on the Dumfries line during the 2010 Airdrie- Bathgate dispute when virtually all Scotrail guards were striking .

All Dumfries guards are on strike for this dispute.

 

[Carntyne]

Isn't the salary of a Ticket Examiner less than the salary of a guard?

In my eyes, on routes like the Barrhead & East Kilbride the stops are so close together the guard rarely has time to do revenue between stations with a second member of staff sometimes put on some services to solely do revenue.

Yes, and they bring in more revenue than guards.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Yes, and they bring in more revenue than guards.

And probably get 5% commission on ticket sales too. Unlike many guards.

 

[Donhamer]

And probably get 5% commission on ticket sales too. Unlike many guards.

Guards get 5%, TE’s get 3% I believe.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Guards get 5%, TE’s get 3% I believe.

How things differ around Britain.

 

[snookertam]

But if there is no money to save as a guard will apparently still be on the train what is the point of manangement trying to force this through?

Not having the guard deal with doors allows them to deal solely with revenue and improves station dwell times, which have always been a problem on this route. This will be why DOCCO isn’t their preferred option.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Not having the guard deal with doors allows them to deal solely with revenue and improves station dwell times, which have always been a problem on this route. This will be why DOCCO isn’t their preferred option.

But if theres no guard and the driver is happy then it goes DOO. Honestly, theres more to being a guard than punching tickets!

 

[Carlisle]

Has a Greater Anglia/SWR style compromise been offered where door competency is retained but driver operated on most services to enable more ticket & customer service time .

 

[Donhamer]

Strikes called off, Conductors will continue to operate doors and carry out despatch duties on Barrhead and EK services.

 

[roymunson]

Strikes called off, Conductors will continue to operate doors and carry out despatch duties on Barrhead and EK services.

Excellent stuff

 

[Donhamer]

Excellent stuff

Yep, common sense prevails.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Hooray!!!! Well done to all involved.

 

[Carlisle]

Yep, common sense prevails.

No, weak management, but hardly surprising so let’s move on

 

[Donhamer]

No, weak management, but hardly surprising so let’s move on

Not something you and I will ever agree on clearly.

 

[Carlisle]

Not something you and I will ever agree on clearly.

True, maybe the politicians ordered Scotrail’s capitulation who knows ?

 

[Donhamer]

True, maybe the politicians ordered Scotrail’s capitulation who knows ?

New FM not wanting this hassle a week into his new job?

 

[Carlisle]

New FM not wanting this hassle a week into his new job?

Yes sounds plausible.

 

[Stan_Butler]

Strikes called off, Conductors will continue to operate doors and carry out despatch duties on Barrhead and EK services.

Great news!

 

[Falcon1200]

Good that the strikes have been called off, but a nonsensical situation now exists. For example, just this last Monday, 13th May;

At 1100, 380101 departed Glasgow Central platform 10 for all stations to Barrhead
At 1105, 380104 departed Glasgow Central platform 9 (the other side of the same island as 10) for all stations to Neilston.

The Neilston service, as they have done for over 30 years, ran DOO; The Barrhead service did not, and, now, cannot.

Can anyone explain the sense and logic in these differing arrangements?

 

[Donhamer]

Good that the strikes have been called off, but a nonsensical situation now exists. For example, just this last Monday, 13th May;

At 1100, 380101 departed Glasgow Central platform 10 for all stations to Barrhead
At 1105, 380104 departed Glasgow Central platform 9 (the other side of the same island as 10) for all stations to Neilston.

The Neilston service, as they have done for over 30 years, ran DOO; The Barrhead service did not, and, now, cannot.

Can anyone explain the sense and logic in these differing arrangements?

I don’t think anyone could explain that adequately for you to be honest.

All I can say is that in my opinion a service with a fully trained and safety critical Conductor operating it is safer than one without. Not just for door operation either, I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve had to contact the emergency services for people behaving inappropriately towards young females or people having medical emergencies or any number of other reasons. Who does that if there’s no 2nd staff member on board as would certainly happen if these proposals were pushed through? Who evacuates the train safely if there’s an accident and the driver is incapacitated when there’s no conductor onboard?

Lets not forget there’s also been countless incidents of passengers being left behind on the platform as there’s been no staff member on board DOO services to operate the wheelchair ramp?

 

[Falcon1200]

All I can say is that in my opinion a service with a fully trained and safety critical Conductor operating it is safer than one without.

All I can say is that I have been using DOO trains ever since they were first introduced in Scotland in 1986, and from that time until 2016 managing routes with DOO services also, and I do not recall a single incident where the fact that a train was DOO resulted in a worse outcome than if it had had a Guard. But; Every single train should have a second member of staff rostered, and staffing complement should be sufficient to ensure this in normal circumstances, however incidents will sometimes occur making that second person unavailable, and that should not result in cancellations.