UK - Morocco ferry, did this ever take off or planning to start soon?

[renegademaster]

I saw it in the news about 6 months ago haven't seen anything since . It was advertised as a way for exporters from North Africa to get round the brexit red tape of travelling via France or Spain.

 

[JB_B]

It seems they've "announced" a (freight) service a few times over the past couple of years (at least).

I've not seen any evidence that the company behind it has ever run anything more that a PR campaign.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Years ago I used a Southampton-Lisbon ferry a couple of times as a foot passenger. There were cars and lorries on it - some of the latter at least were en route to/from north Africa, but I don't remember whether they carried on by ferry from Lisbon, or drove south and then got a ferry over.

 

[BayPaul]

Years ago I used a Southampton-Lisbon ferry a couple of times as a foot passenger. There were cars and lorries on it - some of the latter at least were en route to/from north Africa, but I don't remember whether they carried on by ferry from Lisbon, or drove south and then got a ferry over.

Blast from the past: Southern Ferries’ Eagle

hhvferry.com

P&O southern ferries - ran for 1971 using the early Cruise Ferry Eagle on a Southampton - Lisbon - Tangier route, that was a 6 day round trip.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Years ago I used a Southampton-Lisbon ferry a couple of times as a foot passenger. There were cars and lorries on it - some of the latter at least were en route to/from north Africa, but I don't remember whether they carried on by ferry from Lisbon, or drove south and then got a ferry over.

Blast from the past: Southern Ferries’ Eagle

hhvferry.com

P&O southern ferries - ran for 1971 using the early Cruise Ferry Eagle on a Southampton - Lisbon - Tangier route, that was a 6 day round trip.

I've checked back records I have from my London-Lisbon ferry days...

In January 1971 I used a Southampton-Lisbon ferry, which seems to have been on a weekly Southampton-Lisbon-Southampton circuit, with no evidence that it got as far as Tangier. Its return from Lisbon to Southampton seems to have been scheduled within less than 24 hours of its arrival in Lisbon - hence fitting with other evidence that it went no further. I was planning to have exactly 1 week in Lisbon, before returning north on the same ship on its next circuit.

I remember the timing because of a delay southbound. The ship concerned - not sure whether it was in fact the Eagle, as mentioned here (though I'll do some more checking) - was apparently licensed for something a bit more than just coastal travel, but cutting across the Bay of Biscay was about the limits of its capacities. And a storm struck, whilst we were in the B of B, which staff on the boat said was one of the most severe, even for that season, for some years. So it had to face into the storm, drop anchor (presumably) and stay where it was for 24 hours to ride out the worst of the storm. (Conditions on board were such as to put many passengers off their food ... so all the more for me...)

Hence it arrived in Lisbon a day late and had a rushed turnround, but was back on schedule when it arrived to take me back on its next circuit. This is all a clear memory because it meant that I only had 6 days and nights in Lisbon rather then 7, having gone out there to see someone I'd only first met briefly the previous month; so the reduced time was a source of regret to both of us.

 

[BayPaul]

I've checked back records I have from my London-Lisbon ferry days...

In January 1971 I used a Southampton-Lisbon ferry, which seems to have been on a weekly Southampton-Lisbon-Southampton circuit, with no evidence that it got as far as Tangier. Its return from Lisbon to Southampton seems to have been scheduled within less than 24 hours of its arrival in Lisbon - hence fitting with other evidence that it went no further. I was planning to have exactly 1 week in Lisbon, before returning north on the same ship on its next circuit.

I remember the timing because of a delay southbound. The ship concerned - not sure whether it was in fact the Eagle, as mentioned here (though I'll do some more checking) - was apparently licensed for something a bit more than just coastal travel, but cutting across the Bay of Biscay was about the limits of its capacities. And a storm struck, whilst we were in the B of B, which staff on the boat said was one of the most severe, even for that season, for some years. So it had to face into the storm, drop anchor (presumably) and stay where it was for 24 hours to ride out the worst of the storm. (Conditions on board were such as to put many passengers off their food ... so all the more for me...)

Hence it arrived in Lisbon a day late and had a rushed turnround, but was back on schedule when it arrived to take me back on its next circuit. This is all a clear memory because it meant that I only had 6 days and nights in Lisbon rather then 7, having gone out there to see someone I'd only first met briefly the previous month; so the reduced time was a source of regret to both of us.

Very interesting, thanks for sharing.
They wouldn't have dropped anchor, that would have been incredibly uncomfortable and dangerous in a Biscay storm (and they would have needed to get very close to the coast to do it - anchoring is impossible in more than 80m of water). Instead they would have 'hove to' - put the bow towards the worst of the weather and steamed very slowly, just enough power to maintain steerage way. That reduces rolling, but the ship would still be pitching badly, and avoids damage to the bow.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Very interesting, thanks for sharing.
They wouldn't have dropped anchor, that would have been incredibly uncomfortable and dangerous in a Biscay storm (and they would have needed to get very close to the coast to do it - anchoring is impossible in more than 80m of water). Instead they would have 'hove to' - put the bow towards the worst of the weather and steamed very slowly, just enough power to maintain steerage way. That reduces rolling, but the ship would still be pitching badly, and avoids damage to the bow.

Thanks - I understand about the anchor! Yes - it was pitching a great deal! Although the rolling was reduced, some HGVs in the hold toppled over... and crushed a few very posh cars parked alongside them.

Incidentally - why does pitching rather than rolling avoid bow damage? To a layperson, it seems that it's pitchng that would cause most problem for the bow?

 

[edwin_m]

Thanks - I understand about the anchor! Yes - it was pitching a great deal! Although the rolling was reduced, some HGVs in the hold toppled over... and crushed a few very posh cars parked alongside them.

Incidentally - why does pitching rather than rolling avoid bow damage? To a layperson, it seems that it's pitchng that would cause most problem for the bow?

Pitching may increase the risk of bow damage but it's better for the ship as a whole to have the waves coming over the bow than crashing into the side.

 

[AlbertBeale]

More on this ancient Tangier route...

I've checked more of my records, and it seems pretty clear that the Southampton-Lisbon service I used went no further. I have a Normandy Ferries ticket (£25 for a foot passenger return, cabin and meals included) for leaving Southampton on the evening on Friday 22 Jan 1971, arriving Lisbon on the Monday morning. The return services were scheduled to leave Lisbon on Monday evenings, arriving Southampton on Thursday morning. Hence more than 24 hours at the UK end in between sailings, but not enough leeway at the Lisbon end to have gone to Tangier and back. And as I said before, a storm in the Bay of Biscay meant arriving 24 hours late in Lisbon, but the service back that I was catching a week later had caught up with its schedule by then (using the 24h slack at the Southampton end).

The ferry reference above by BayPaul was to the Eagle, of Southern Ferries. But whatever that company was doing, there was certainly a Normandy Ferries service as far south as Lisbon in that era. My ticket - bought at a Cooks office in Brighton a few days before I travelled, had the name of the ship written in as the Leopard; however, the rubber stamps on the ticket cover, authorising me for embarkation, give the ship's name as the Dragon. I can't cast any light on that anomaly.

 

[BayPaul]

More on this ancient Tangier route...

I've checked more of my records, and it seems pretty clear that the Southampton-Lisbon service I used went no further. I have a Normandy Ferries ticket (£25 for a foot passenger return, cabin and meals included) for leaving Southampton on the evening on Friday 22 Jan 1971, arriving Lisbon on the Monday morning. The return services were scheduled to leave Lisbon on Monday evenings, arriving Southampton on Thursday morning. Hence more than 24 hours at the UK end in between sailings, but not enough leeway at the Lisbon end to have gone to Tangier and back. And as I said before, a storm in the Bay of Biscay meant arriving 24 hours late in Lisbon, but the service back that I was catching a week later had caught up with its schedule by then (using the 24h slack at the Southampton end).

The ferry reference above by BayPaul was to the Eagle, of Southern Ferries. But whatever that company was doing, there was certainly a Normandy Ferries service as far south as Lisbon in that era. My ticket - bought at a Cooks office in Brighton a few days before I travelled, had the name of the ship written in as the Leopard; however, the rubber stamps on the ticket cover, authorising me for embarkation, give the ship's name as the Dragon. I can't cast any light on that anomaly.

Normandy Ferries and Southern Ferries were the same company. Think a GTR sort of situation. Leopard ran the service briefly before the introduction of the Eagle - she was normally on the Southampton - Le Havre route, that would probably explain why they didn't go all the way, I think there were customs challenges right at the start from memory.

Thanks - I understand about the anchor! Yes - it was pitching a great deal! Although the rolling was reduced, some HGVs in the hold toppled over... and crushed a few very posh cars parked alongside them.

Incidentally - why does pitching rather than rolling avoid bow damage? To a layperson, it seems that it's pitchng that would cause most problem for the bow?

It's the slowing down that protects the bow. It's the strongest part of the ship, but crashing into waves causes pounding damage. At low speeds the energy is much reduced.

 

[Prime586]

More on this ancient Tangier route...

I've checked more of my records, and it seems pretty clear that the Southampton-Lisbon service I used went no further. I have a Normandy Ferries ticket (£25 for a foot passenger return, cabin and meals included) for leaving Southampton on the evening on Friday 22 Jan 1971, arriving Lisbon on the Monday morning. The return services were scheduled to leave Lisbon on Monday evenings, arriving Southampton on Thursday morning. Hence more than 24 hours at the UK end in between sailings, but not enough leeway at the Lisbon end to have gone to Tangier and back. And as I said before, a storm in the Bay of Biscay meant arriving 24 hours late in Lisbon, but the service back that I was catching a week later had caught up with its schedule by then (using the 24h slack at the Southampton end).

The ferry reference above by BayPaul was to the Eagle, of Southern Ferries. But whatever that company was doing, there was certainly a Normandy Ferries service as far south as Lisbon in that era. My ticket - bought at a Cooks office in Brighton a few days before I travelled, had the name of the ship written in as the Leopard; however, the rubber stamps on the ticket cover, authorising me for embarkation, give the ship's name as the Dragon. I can't cast any light on that anomaly.

Tne MV Leopard and MV Dragon were sister ships. Normandy Ferries was a joint venture between P&O and S.A.G.A. of France. Leopard was French registered, Dragon was UK registered. They were originally built to operate the Southampton-Le Havre route (to compete against Thoresen's Viking ferries), with Dragon going into service in 1967 and Leopard the following year where it inaugurated the Rosslare-Le Havre route in May 1968 (in partnership with Irish Shipping Ltd, to introduce the first ferry service between Ireland and continental Europe).

Normandy Ferries then introduced an off-season Southampton-Lisbon-Casablanca route in November 1968, which was initially operated by Leopard, but then solely by Dragon after it was refitted to add 96 extra berths for the route (with Leopard operating a Le Havre-Lisbon-Casablanca route in the off-season). Dragon continued to operate the Southampton--Lisbon-Casablanca (later changed to Tangiers) route off-season until the introduction of the MV Eagle 'cruise ferry' in May 1971 (under the Southern Ferries name, which was 100% P&O owned) to operate the route year-round. The route struggled with profitability after the 1973 oil crisis and was axed by P&O in 1976, The Eagle was sold off to a French line and converted into a cruise ship.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Thanks to various of you for information about my own history!! The only remaining puzzle is that the above information suggests that the Soton-Lisbon service always continued somewhere south before returning. But the evidence seems clear that when I traveled (Jan 1971), the service only went as far as Lisbon...

 

[Gloster]

The March 1973 Cooks Continental Timetable has MV Eagle working a Southampton (18.00 on Day One)-Lisbon (13.00-18.00 on Day Three)-Tangier (08.00 on Day Four); then returning at 18.00 the same evening via Lisbon (09.00-17.00) to reach Southampton at 12.00 on ‘Day Seven’. This didn’t run every week and there was nothing from July 7 to September 1 from Southampton, but there was a Southampton-Lisbon running in the same departure times, but with dates that sometimes overlapped and sometimes didn’t.

 

[route101]

There was talk of a service going to Porto from the UK but nothing has come of it.

 

[AlbertBeale]

There was talk of a service going to Porto from the UK but nothing has come of it.

Given the impossibility of an easy London-Portugal journey by train, since the Hendaye-[and Madrid-]Lisbon sleeper was withdrawn a few years ago (London-Paris, TGV Paris-Hendaye, Hendaye-Lisbon, meant a possible 24-hour journey from London to Lisbon with just 2 changes), a direct UK-Portugal passenger ferry again would be wonderful. The current rail link takes days and numerous changes! The old system made 24-hour rail journeys to/from Lisbon possible for lots of western and north-western Europe.

 

[Gloster]

Given the impossibility of an easy London-Portugal journey by train, since the Hendaye-[and Madrid-]Lisbon sleeper was withdrawn a few years ago (London-Paris, TGV Paris-Hendaye, Hendaye-Lisbon, meant a possible 24-hour journey from London to Lisbon with just 2 changes), a direct UK-Portugal passenger ferry again would be wonderful. The current rail link takes days and numerous changes! The old system made 24-hour rail journeys to/from Lisbon possible for lots of western and north-western Europe.

It is not really going to be much quicker by sea and, although you don’t have to change, would Lisbon itself be the destination for most travellers? I doubt that you would get enough passengers as the majority of holidaymakers would fly direct to their destination. And if you play up the mini-cruise aspect you risk appalling publicity the first time there is a storm in the oh-so-clement Bay of Biscay.

 

[telstarbox]

What products does Morocco export to the UK but not also to France, noting that one used to be a colony of the other?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Tne MV Leopard and MV Dragon were sister ships. Normandy Ferries was a joint venture between P&O and S.A.G.A. of France. Leopard was French registered, Dragon was UK registered. They were originally built to operate the Southampton-Le Havre route (to compete against Thoresen's Viking ferries), with Dragon going into service in 1967 and Leopard the following year where it inaugurated the Rosslare-Le Havre route in May 1968 (in partnership with Irish Shipping Ltd, to introduce the first ferry service between Ireland and continental Europe).

Normandy Ferries then introduced an off-season Southampton-Lisbon-Casablanca route in November 1968, which was initially operated by Leopard, but then solely by Dragon after it was refitted to add 96 extra berths for the route (with Leopard operating a Le Havre-Lisbon-Casablanca route in the off-season). Dragon continued to operate the Southampton--Lisbon-Casablanca (later changed to Tangiers) route off-season until the introduction of the MV Eagle 'cruise ferry' in May 1971 (under the Southern Ferries name, which was 100% P&O owned) to operate the route year-round. The route struggled with profitability after the 1973 oil crisis and was axed by P&O in 1976, The Eagle was sold off to a French line and converted into a cruise ship.

...and here is the MV Dragon departing Southampton at 11.44 on 12th August 1983. What route would she have been on by this time?

 

[BayPaul]

...and here is the MV Dragon departing Southampton at 11.44 on 12th August 1983. What route would she have been on by this time?
View attachment 151560

Southampton - Le Havre. A few years later they moved to Portsmouth, then were taken over by Townsend Thoresen.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Southampton - Le Havre. A few years later they moved to Portsmouth, then were taken over by Townsend Thoresen.

Thank you.

Amazing to think of such a relatively small ferry going all the way to Portugal isn't it? Must have been fun in the Bay of Biscay at times...

 

[renegademaster]

What products does Morocco export to the UK but not also to France, noting that one used to be a colony of the other?

The idea was for the stuff to only go through customs once rather than twice, but i dont think thats really as difficult as some people make out

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Thank you.

Amazing to think of such a relatively small ferry going all the way to Portugal isn't it? Must have been fun in the Bay of Biscay at times...

Is your comment not simply a reflection of the fact that ferries (as with cruise ships) have gradually got bigger with time? I'll bet that back in the day some relatively small ships would have earned their living crossing the Baltic/North/Irish Sea and doubtless that would also apply to potentially stormy seas elsewhere in the world.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Is your comment not simply a reflection of the fact that ferries (as with cruise ships) have gradually got bigger with time? I'll bet that back in the day some relatively small ships would have earned their living crossing the Baltic/North/Irish Sea and doubtless that would also apply to potentially stormy seas elsewhere in the world.

Very true - they have. After all, if you look at the size of the ships the likes of Drake and Columbus used...

Ship size is probably a separate discussion worthy of a dedicated thread, though?

 

[route101]

The idea was for the stuff to only go through customs once rather than twice, but i dont think thats really as difficult as some people make out

I am not sure how big the market is for goods but I do see lorries in the UK with Moroccan number plates.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Thank you.

Amazing to think of such a relatively small ferry going all the way to Portugal isn't it? Must have been fun in the Bay of Biscay at times...

Indeed - see my post 5 above (et seq).