Wrongly splitting the tickets, which UFNs are to be given?

[TSR :D]

For example, there might be a route from A to Z. All stations in between are lettered from B to Y.

So. What happens if I wrongly split the route into A-M and O-Z missing N.

Which UFN are to be handed? For A-N or N-Z? Both route's any-time ticket prices are different.

 

[cuccir]

Blimey that is baffling. But surely it would be the gap, M to O?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Blimey that is baffling. But surely it would be the gap, M to O?

If the train stopped at M and O, then yes.

Otherwise, I'd say it should be to cover payment for the 'gap' between the nearest stopping points either side of the 'N' station.

 

[SS4]

...where the train stopped at which at least one of the tickets was valid

You would be treated as without a ticket for the gap, M to O

 

[MarkyMarkD]

... if the tickets allow BOJ, surely? (in response to Dave's comments). Otherwise it would be A to Z if the train didn't stop at M or O, wouldn't it, because both tickets would be invalid for that journey.

 

[yorkie]

For example, there might be a route from A to Z. All stations in between are lettered from B to Y.

So. What happens if I wrongly split the route into A-M and O-Z missing N.

Which UFN are to be handed? For A-N or N-Z? Both route's any-time ticket prices are different.

I am going to decline to answer this (sorry!) until an actual example is given, with named stations and exact tickets held (including ticket type, origin, destination).

I could go on a huge "if this, if that" response, but it would be a waste of my time, and a waste of time for people reading it. Sorry.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I am going to decline to answer this (sorry!) until an actual example is given, with named stations and exact tickets held (including ticket type, origin, destination).

I could go on a huge "if this, if that" response, but it would be a waste of my time, and a waste of time for people reading it. Sorry.

Well, here is an example.

Passenger is travelling Leeds to Manchester Airport. They have a West Yorkshire day Rover covering as far as Marsden, and a Greater Manchester Day Rover covering from Greenfield into Manchester.

The bit that is missing is Marsden to Greenfield.

If they were travelling on the hourly stopping service then the UFN would be from Marsden to Greenfield.

If they were travelling on the TPE service which runs non stop from Huddersfield to Manchester then the UFN would be from Huddersfield to Manchester as the West Yorkshire Day Rover ceases to become valid at Huddersfield as that is the last station the train stops at in West Yorkshire. Manchester Piccadilly is the first station the train stops at in the GMPTE area, and so the GMPTE ticket does not become valid until that point.

As you say though their are all sorts of different outcomes depending on a) what actual ticket types are held and b) the stopping pattern of the train.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Whatever the route is, whatever the journey is, the ticket/Penalty Fare you would be asked to pay for would be from the last place the first ticket is valid (the last stop the train stopped at usually) to the first place the second ticket is valid (the first stop the ticket is valid from usually).

An unpaid fares notice is not a right the passenger has.

 

[Ferret]

An unpaid fares notice is not a right the passenger has.

Correct! Don't ever ask me for one, cos you'll just get reported for fare evasion without me giving it a second thought.

 

[LexyBoy]

Whatever the route is, whatever the journey is, the ticket/Penalty Fare you would be asked to pay for would be from the last place the first ticket is valid (the last stop the train stopped at usually) to the first place the second ticket is valid (the first stop the ticket is valid from usually)

If one of the tickets were a Season, would a ticket from the last point of validity or the last calling point be offered?

 

[yorkie]

If one of the tickets were a Season, would a ticket from the last point of validity or the last calling point be offered?

If one of the tickets is a season and the others are not then a ticket would need to be purchased between the stations not covered and the train would not need to call at any of the stations.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Correct! Don't ever ask me for one, cos you'll just get reported for fare evasion without me giving it a second thought.

Ditto. If someone asks for one they get reported, end of.

 

[Yew]

Ditto. If someone asks for one they get reported, end of.

Why is that so?

 

[AlterEgo]

Passengers will only generally know what a UFN is if they've had one before...

 

[34D]

Why is that so?

Presumably it suggests that they've been through the system before?

To the OP. Please do NOT travel without full tickets. I'm sure there is still time before you travel to buy the M to O ticket. If you post full details here people will suggest the best bet.

 

[barrykas]

Why is that so?

At a guess, for travelling without a ticket and no means to buy one.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

At a guess, for travelling without a ticket and no means to buy one.

Indeed. If someone asks for a UFN then they are attempting to travel without the means to pay the fare. Despite what some people believe, the Railways are not there to transport society's waifs and strays around. Genuine people in genuine hardship (i.e. they are stuck somewhere for some unfortunate reason) can normally be detected, and these people will normally make themselves known to a ticket office beforehand, and attempt to make alternative arrangements. If someone just sits there, and waits for you to find them, and then asks for a UFN they know what they are doing and are attempting to avoid paying.

 

[GadgetMan]

If you had a ticket for the first leg of a journey and the last leg, with no tickets inbetween then depending on the circumstances there is a very good chance you'd be reported for fare evasion. A UFN wouldn't be offered to you, the option to buy the appropriate ticket may not be offered either if the ticket inspector thinks you are on the fiddle and you've previously had an opportunity to have paid the correct fare due.

As others have mentioned, unless you describe the exact situation and tickets involved then its impossible to offer accurate advice. However you should never plan your journey around the hope you'll be given a UFN.

 

[Ferret]

At a guess, for travelling without a ticket and no means to buy one.

Exactly this. A UFN can easily be done for those who have made a genuine error - like forgetting a railcard. Somebody getting on a train and then asking for a UFN is providing me with evidence that you had intent to avoid the fare. The railways do not generally run a 'buy now, pay later' scheme in the same way as furniture retailers!

 

[cuccir]

At a guess, for travelling without a ticket and no means to buy one.

Exactly this. A UFN can easily be done for those who have made a genuine error - like forgetting a railcard. Somebody getting on a train and then asking for a UFN is providing me with evidence that you had intent to avoid the fare. The railways do not generally run a 'buy now, pay later' scheme in the same way as furniture retailers!

Would echo this - wanted to say something similar in my original response but wanted to wait for rail staff to confirm it

 

[Anon Mouse]

Correct! Don't ever ask me for one, cos you'll just get reported for fare evasion without me giving it a second thought.

The amount of times I get an individual asking for "one of those forms" grrrrrr. TIR all the way!

 

[barrykas]

The amount of times I get an individual asking for "one of those forms" grrrrrr. TIR all the way!

More fun round my way, as the majority of our Revenue Protection team are PACE trained, so "one of those forms" is an MG11.

 

[Fare-Cop]

Exactly this. A UFN can easily be done for those who have made a genuine error - like forgetting a railcard. Somebody getting on a train and then asking for a UFN is providing me with evidence that you had intent to avoid the fare. The railways do not generally run a 'buy now, pay later' scheme in the same way as furniture retailers!

Absolutely right, the fact is that a fare is due at the time of travel and not later.

Judgement in the Appeal Court case of Corbyn (1978) decided that any traveller, who knows a fare is due, but does not buy a ticket where booking office or machine was available and travels without a valid ticket, waiting to be asked to pay, may be considered to be intending to avoid the fare unless challenged and that this is an offence contrary to Section 5 of the Regulation of Railways Act (1889).

Any person who has no ticket and no means to pay the fare on demand if ticket facilities were not available does not have the right to board any train.