SWR Class 458 to be retained

[TT-ONR-NRN]

As well as the wheel-rotation control which often gets it out of sync, and that it isn't guard friendly, as mentioned above - it also appears crappy from a passenger perspective:

I wish it would pronounce stations with the down inflection/end of sentence emphasis when it needs to.
There are only so many times I can hear: "This train is forLONDON WATERLOO?"

They need to put a space before the station name, and stop lazily cutting the recordings into weird phrases.
"This train is now approachingFELTHAM?" using the "This train is now approaching it's final stop" recording and cutting it. "The next station is" works fine on all other SWR stock (707 excluded) which all uses Annax instead of whatever it is the 458s have. And the hastily added "Please remember to take all your personal belongings with you when you leave the train." immediately after "This is:"

It's all the exact same recordings as on the trains fitted with the Annax PIS - 158/159/444/450/455 (these recordings were also fitted to 456s but these did NOT have an Annax PIS but an LED one more similar to TrainFX) - just used totally differently and omitting the down inflection/end of sentence station recordings.

The PIS is also very narrow, so letters which hang low in lowercase form such as p, g, y and q are displayed oddly so that the bottom of the letter was on the line and didn't get cut off. I used to travel a lot on 458s between Ascot and Guildford and always found this amusing:
"We are now aPProachinG WanborouGh. Please mind the GaP between the train and Platform edGe."
"The door buttons are now activated. This is BaGshot/CamberleY."
"This train is now aPProaching its final stoP. Please take Your Personal belonGinGs with You. Thank You for travellinG with South West Trains."

It looks dreadful. And until not long after their initial introduction, it was apparently originally even narrower than that, but got changed pretty rapidly. Though as I've just stated and demonstrated, the replacement is still too thin to display letters with tails!

 

[Scotrail314209]

As well as the wheel-rotation control which often gets it out of sync, and that it isn't guard friendly, as mentioned above - it also appears crappy from a passenger perspective:

I wish it would pronounce stations with the down inflection/end of sentence emphasis when it needs to.
There are only so many times I can hear: "This train is forLONDON WATERLOO?"

They need to put a space before the station name, and stop lazily cutting the recordings into weird phrases.
"This train is now approachingFELTHAM?" using the "This train is now approaching it's final stop" recording and cutting it. "The next station is" works fine on all other SWR stock (707 excluded) which all uses Annax instead of whatever it is the 458s have. And the hastily added "Please remember to take all your personal belongings with you when you leave the train." immediately after "This is:"

It's all the exact same recordings as on the trains fitted with the Annax PIS - 158/159/444/450/455 (these recordings were also fitted to 456s but these did NOT have an Annax PIS but an LED one more similar to TrainFX) - just used totally differently and omitting the down inflection/end of sentence station recordings.

The PIS is also very narrow, so letters which hang low in lowercase form such as p, g, y and q are displayed oddly so that the bottom of the letter was on the line and didn't get cut off. I used to travel a lot on 458s between Ascot and Guildford and always found this amusing:
"We are now aPProachinG WanborouGh. Please mind the GaP between the train and Platform edGe."
"The door buttons are now activated. This is BaGshot/CamberleY."
"This train is now aPProaching its final stoP. Please take Your Personal belonGinGs with You. Thank You for travellinG with South West Trains."

It looks dreadful. And until not long after their initial introduction, it was apparently originally even narrower than that, but got changed pretty rapidly. Though as I've just stated and demonstrated, the replacement is still too thin to display letters with tails!

The PIS is an Alstom thing. Scotrail’s 334s do the exact same with the inflections.

 

[Mzzzs]

I am surprised SWR did not choose to upgrade the pis on the 450/444s as well they could have done something similar to the 350 or even something like on the 700s but they kept it the same.
The 458s pis are very poor it should be brought up to the same as 450 at a minimum.

 

[swt_passenger]

It looks dreadful. And until not long after their initial introduction, it was apparently originally even narrower than that, but got changed pretty rapidly. Though as I've just stated and demonstrated, the replacement is still too thin to display letters with tails!

IIRC the history of the units included a period when the small letter size on the PIS was one of a few reasons that were going to mean them being withdrawn from service, for failure to meet RVAR requirements. I expect they crammed a display with very slightly more pixels into the same housing.

 

[py_megapixel]

IIRC the history of the units included a period when the small letter size on the PIS was going to mean them being withdrawn from service.

I thought that was the horizontal length (not being able to fit enough letters on at once to meet PRM requirements).

Not sure they'd have been withdrawn anyway. Several retro-fit PIS solutions exit (even if the most popular one seems to be a bit rubbish)

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought that was the horizontal length (not being able to fit enough letters on at once to meet PRM requirements).

Not sure they'd have been withdrawn anyway. Several retro-fit PIS solutions exit (even if the most popular one seems to be a bit rubbish)

Roger Ford reported it at the time as being a 32mm height display, but the revised regulations subsequent to the original build required 35mm height. He wrote that the trains would be taken out of service over a 3mm height difference, (although there were presumably a number of other problems).

I suspect it was more about SWT and Alstom digging in over the principle of a retrospective dimension change.

 

[XAM2175]

The PIS is also very narrow, so letters which hang low in lowercase form such as p, g, y and q are displayed oddly so that the bottom of the letter was on the line and didn't get cut off. I used to travel a lot on 458s between Ascot and Guildford and always found this amusing:
"We are now aPProachinG WanborouGh. Please mind the GaP between the train and Platform edGe."
"The door buttons are now activated. This is BaGshot/CamberleY."
"This train is now aPProaching its final stoP. Please take Your Personal belonGinGs with You. Thank You for travellinG with South West Trains."

It looks dreadful. And until not long after their initial introduction, it was apparently originally even narrower than that, but got changed pretty rapidly. Though as I've just stated and demonstrated, the replacement is still too thin to display letters with tails!

IIRC the history of the units included a period when the small letter size on the PIS was one of a few reasons that were going to mean them being withdrawn from service, for failure to meet RVAR requirements. I expect they crammed a display with very slightly more pixels into the same housing.

I thought that was the horizontal length (not being able to fit enough letters on at once to meet PRM requirements).

Not sure they'd have been withdrawn anyway. Several retro-fit PIS solutions exit (even if the most popular one seems to be a bit rubbish)

No, it was the height of the characters. Using a font with no descenders (hanging bits like on "g" and "y" is a long-established trick for getting more height of dot-matrix displays - otherwise you have at least one row of pixels that are only ever used by a handful of letters.

Specifically, per the Rail Vehicle Accessibility (South West Trains Class 458 Vehicles) Exemption Order 1999 (No. 2404):

4(1) Subject to articles 5 and 6 below, the exempted vehicles are hereby authorised to be used for carriage even though they do not conform with those provisions of the Rail Vehicle Accessibility Regulations 1998 referred to in paragraph (2) below.
4(2) The provisions with which the exempted vehicles are not required to conform are—
...
- regulation 13(7), but only in so far as it relates to the height of letters and numbers on visual systems which are not on the front of an exempted vehicle; and
...
5(6) The exemption given in respect of regulation 13(7) shall cease—
5(6)(a) at the end of 30th September 2004; or
5(6)(b) in respect of an exempted vehicle in which the public addresses system for visual announcements is replaced by another system for such announcements before that date, when such replacement occurs.

(Note that 5(6)(a) was later amended to be 31 July 2006)

Regulation 13(7) being:

13(7) The first letter of, and numbers used in, announcements on visual systems shall be not less than 70 millimetres high on systems on the front of the vehicle and not less than 35 millimetres high on other systems, and all letters and numbers shall contrast with their background.

but the original displays had a 32 mm character height.

Ultimately new displays were fitted to the fleet - you can tell if you look closely at the curved centre-line panel in the ceiling, which curves ever so slightly over the larger panel. ScotRail's 334s were not modified - for reasons that I do not know - and they still have the original displays for comparison.

I should mention specifically for @TT-ONR-NRN's benefit that the no-descender fonts are probably much more common than he thinks; given that they're used in two different applications on Pendolinos and that he'll also encounter them on both Alstom and Annax systems should he visit Melbourne again.

Roger Ford reported it at the time as being a 32mm height display, but the revised regulations subsequent to the original build required 35mm height. He wrote that the trains would be taken out of service over a 3mm height difference, (although there were presumably a number of other problems).

Ah, you got there ahead of me! But yes, there were five other regulations with which non-compliance was only temporarily exempted. The explanatory note with the 1999 order lists the full set as:

• doorway warning sounds cannot be heard outside the vehicle;
• warnings are emitted whenever the passenger doors in the sides of the vehicles are closed;
• door controls are not positioned as required;
• internal door controls are not illuminated;
• the band of colour on the step-tread is too wide;
• there is no step illumination
• handrails at external doors are not positioned as required;
• the characters for internal visual announcements are smaller than required; and
• the toilet cubicle for disabled persons in wheelchairs does not meet the requirement that such a person may wash and dry his hands without moving from the toilet and the requirement that there must be sufficient space for a reference wheelchair in front of and beside the toilet.

 

[swr444]

Basic and rubbish. Because of the design of this system, it really seems to suffer when there's poor railhead conditions as it often throws itself out of sync and ends up at least 1 if not 2 stations ahead of itself.

the whole out of sync stuff is due to the screens scrolling info twice, if its announcing whilst pulling into a station and the doors have been released, you have to wait for the PA light to go out and back on for the "this is xx announcement" otherwise when the door close button is pressed, it doesn't think that you have opened the doors and doesn't announce it. the worst places are the ones where they've added the "see it, say it, sorted" announcements as there is so much more text to scroll through. it's a really awful and basic system like you said

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I should mention specifically for @TT-ONR-NRN's benefit that the no-descender fonts are probably much more common than he thinks; given that they're used in two different applications on Pendolinos and that he'll also encounter them on both Alstom and Annax systems should he visit Melbourne again.

No, I'm aware they're fairly common and I've seen them elsewhere, I just find it rather odd looking. I would certainly not say it's as obvious on Pendolinos, as the letter is slightly adjusted to remove descenders, whereas on 458s the descender remains, they just move the letter higher up which is why it looks silly.

 

[moley]

I am surprised SWR did not choose to upgrade the pis on the 450/444s as well they could have done something similar to the 350 or even something like on the 700s but they kept it the same.
The 458s pis are very poor it should be brought up to the same as 450 at a minimum.

The original SWR franchise had an upgrade to the Desiro PIS. When SWR did the internal refresh they said the PIS upgrade would follow but then Covid…..

 

[Goldfish62]

The original SWR franchise had an upgrade to the Desiro PIS. When SWR did the internal refresh they said the PIS upgrade would follow but then Covid…..

Along with repainting the interior including the grab poles.

 

[Wokingham]

It's been cancelled, the poles would have been done at the same time.

 

[hapt1n]

458505, refurbishment set No.3 in Widnes, a couple of days after arrival mid Feb 2023. The plan is to have a rolling 3 458 sets at Widnes till at least the summer. Hopefully the image description will pass foresenic inspection.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

458505, refurbishment set No.3 in Widnes, a couple of days after arrival mid Feb 2023.

View attachment 131618

Thank you! I can’t wait to see more of that one in the livery. I hope it comes out soon.

 

[moley]

At one point it was commented about 3 units (a 12 car train) being done and then pause. With that 12-car then being tested. Are we to assume we’ve moved past that now?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Are the other two now 458007 and 458017, as they used to be?

 

[hapt1n]

Are the other two now 458007 and 458017, as they used to

Yes, they are still in Widnes.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yes, they are still in Widnes.

Sorry what I was confirming was had they been renumbered from 507/517 to 007/017?

 

[D365]

458505, refurbishment set No.3 in Widnes, a couple of days after arrival mid Feb 2023. The plan is to have a rolling 3 458 sets at Widnes till at least the summer. Hopefully the image description will pass foresenic inspection.

I like the smiley face on 8505.

Sorry what I was confirming was had they been renumbered from 507/517 to 007/017?

Has it been confirmed anywhere that units will be renumbered back?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I like the smiley face on 8505.

Has it been confirmed anywhere that units will be renumbered back?

No, I’d just assumed that the 5 had been introduced to denote to staff that the formation included an additional (fifth) 460 carriage, or indeed for 531-536 a composition of five 460 carriages. Surely it’d help if at some point both 458 types will be in the fleet?

 

[D365]

No, I’d just assumed that the 5 had been introduced to denote to staff that the formation included an additional (fifth) 460 carriage, or indeed for 531-536 a composition of five 460 carriages. Surely it’d help if at some point both 458 types will be in the fleet?

Just asking the question as I haven't yet seen/heard any confirmation myself.

 

[cactustwirly]

No, I’d just assumed that the 5 had been introduced to denote to staff that the formation included an additional (fifth) 460 carriage, or indeed for 531-536 a composition of five 460 carriages. Surely it’d help if at some point both 458 types will be in the fleet?

I thought it was because the cabs had changed significantly, so the crew needed to be trained on them. So needed a new subclass designation

 

[TEW]

Sorry what I was confirming was had they been renumbered from 507/517 to 007/017?

Internally they're being referred to as 458/4, but don't know what numbers they'll actually end up with.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I like the smiley face on 8505.

Virtually the entire Wimbledon fleet has these...!!

 

[LUYMun]

458527 working the 5B39 this morning, it looks as though it's been registered to start from Wimbledon, but only started from Basingstoke. Could anyone confirm if it travelled the first half of the section?

Realtime Trains | 5B39 1001 Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs to Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D | 27/03/2023

Real-time train running information for 5B39 1001 departure from Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs to Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D on 27/03/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[pompeyfan]

458527 working the 5B39 this morning, it looks as though it's been registered to start from Wimbledon, but only started from Basingstoke. Could anyone confirm if it travelled the first half of the section?

Realtime Trains | 5B39 1001 Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs to Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D | 27/03/2023

Real-time train running information for 5B39 1001 departure from Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs to Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D on 27/03/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I would imagine it ran throughout, but the schedule wasn’t activated until around Basingstoke.

Wasn’t the 458/5 designation (and the internal 459 designation) to prevent them being attached? Not so much crew purposes.

 

[hapt1n]

458417 Early April. Widnes

 

[Intercity110]

458417 Early April. Widnes

Looks good!

 

[43096]

458417 Early April. Widnes

Is that confirmation of the numbering?

 

[hapt1n]

Is that confirmation of the numbering?

It's written on the front