White Rose station: Objections, alternatives, missed opportunities?

[61653 HTAFC]

Moderator note: split from

White Rose Station

I was in the area and took few photos yesterday. Difficult to get close enough to get good photos but should give some idea of progress. The first photo shows the westbound platform as seen from street level ie the A643 Aka Cherwell Hill The second and third are general shots of the site works...

www.railforums.co.uk

Still think "White Rose" is a silly name for the station, given that it isn't particularly close to the eponymous shopping centre and doesn't specify what "White Rose" is to the uninitiated. Sure, the adjacent business park is also called White Rose, but unless you're one of the few hundred people that work there the name is a bit abstract.

"Churwell & Cottingley for White Rose Centre" would be better IMO.

 

[RHolmes]

still think "White Rose" is a silly name for the station, given that it isn't particularly close to the eponymous shopping centre

Think less shopping centre and more business park, which is pretty much adjacent to the station

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I thought that "White Rose" has a special significance for anywhere in Yorkshire, noting that battles had once been fought with its name.

It does, and that's why the Shopping Centre is thusly named... but a station named "White Rose" with no other information could be anywhere in the county.

Think less shopping centre and more business park, which is pretty much adjacent to the station

Someone didn't read the whole post. The business park is meaningless unless you work there, and the station isn't called "White Rose Business Park".

Naming national rail stations after random developments, abstract symbols or minor roads is a daft concept in my opinion. See also Headbolt Lane or Wavertree Technology Park.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It does, and that's why the Shopping Centre is thusly named... but a station named "White Rose" with no other information could be anywhere in the county.

One might well ask the same of a similar station many miles to the north....Should it be James Cook or James Cook University Hospital?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

One might well ask the same of a similar station many miles to the north....Should it be James Cook or James Cook University Hospital?

Definitely the latter in my opinion. This trend for giving stations vague or incomplete names needs to end... as does using business or corporate names which then have to be changed when said corporation rebrands or goes under (looking at you, Intu Trafford Centre).

 

[RHolmes]

Someone didn't read the whole post. The business park is meaningless unless you work there, and the station isn't called "White Rose Business Park".

Naming national rail stations after random developments, abstract symbols or minor roads is a daft concept in my opinion. See also Headbolt Lane or Wavertree Technology Park.

I did read your entire post and I still firmly don’t agree with it as it’s all relative.

White Rose will largely be used by local passengers travelling to the local amenities of either White Rose shopping centre or White Rose business park. As a conductor of said line, I can guarantee that more people will know where “White Rose” is geographically compared to “Churwell”. Cottingley currently has low passenger numbers, very few passengers per train board/alight at Cottingley and those that do are largely either local residents or workers at the business park.

Now Headbolt Lane on the other hand I completely agree with you, as it doesn’t reflect the area of the station. Similarly I’d also rename stations such as Rice Lane and James Street to include the area they’re situated in, particularly when the latter forms part of the Liverpool Stns group.

However, Wavertree Technology Park does what it says on the tin. It’s in Wavertree, and is on the edge of the Technology Park, which locally I would argue is the landmark location, therefore it couldn’t be more clearer.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I did read your entire post and I still firmly don’t agree with it as it’s all relative.

White Rose will largely be used by local passengers travelling to the local amenities of either White Rose shopping centre or White Rose business park. As a conductor of said line, I can guarantee that more people will know where “White Rose” is geographically compared to “Churwell”. Cottingley currently has low passenger numbers, very few passengers per train board/alight at Cottingley and those that do are largely either local residents or workers at the business park.

Now Headbolt Lane on the other hand I completely agree with you, as it doesn’t reflect the area of the station. Similarly I’d also rename stations such as Rice Lane and James Street to include the area they’re situated in, particularly when the latter forms part of the Liverpool Stns group.

However, Wavertree Technology Park does what it says on the tin. It’s in Wavertree, and is on the edge of the Technology Park, which locally I would argue is the landmark location, therefore it couldn’t be more clearer.

Cottingley is currently only served by one of the two "stopping" services on the line- presumably White Rose will be served by both. The new location however is less convenient than Cottingley for local residents, so I predict the usage will be more peak-oriented. Though there will likely also be more inbound traffic than Cottingley currently generates.

My issue with Wavertree Technology Park is more that I'm not convinced the "Technology Park" bit of the name adds much. There are no other Wavertree stations so simply calling it "Wavertree" would work just as well.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This trend for giving stations vague or incomplete names needs to end... as does using business or corporate names which then have to be changed when said corporation rebrands or goes under (looking at you, Intu Trafford Centre).

That centre has been renamed The Trafford Centre (and so has its tram stop) for quite some time now.

 

[zwk500]

Moderator note: split from

White Rose Station

I was in the area and took few photos yesterday. Difficult to get close enough to get good photos but should give some idea of progress. The first photo shows the westbound platform as seen from street level ie the A643 Aka Cherwell Hill The second and third are general shots of the site works...

www.railforums.co.uk

Still think "White Rose" is a silly name for the station, given that it isn't particularly close to the eponymous shopping centre and doesn't specify what "White Rose" is to the uninitiated. Sure, the adjacent business park is also called White Rose, but unless you're one of the few hundred people that work there the name is a bit abstract.

"Churwell & Cottingley for White Rose Centre" would be better IMO.

People from Churwell and Cottingley won't really care what it's called, as long as they know which trains they're looking for. It's the inbound traffic that needs to know where it's headed and if the 2 most significant destinations for visitors are both called White Rose is it not reasonable to call the station that? If it was not the nearest station, or people were proposing spending £1.5m to rename it then I'd agree it would be a waste of money. However, in development the station needed a separate name and if it's fairly self-descriptive.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That centre has been renamed The Trafford Centre (and so has its tram stop) for quite some time now.

I know- how much did that cost though? I've never met anyone who called the mall "Intu Trafford Centre" so including the company name in the station name was pointless- even if Intu hadn't collapsed.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I know- how much did that cost though? I've never met anyone who called the mall "Intu Trafford Centre" so including the company name in the station name was pointless- even if Intu hadn't collapsed.

intu was a large company with a few flagship retail parks in its domain. Remember on the Manchester Metrolink system, TfGM seemed not at all worried about ensuring the original intu name appearing on both tram station boards and the tram destination screen when that new tram line was opened.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

People from Churwell and Cottingley won't really care what it's called, as long as they know which trains they're looking for. It's the inbound traffic that needs to know where it's headed and if the 2 most significant destinations for visitors are both called White Rose is it not reasonable to call the station that? If it was not the nearest station, or people were proposing spending £1.5m to rename it then I'd agree it would be a waste of money. However, in development the station needed a separate name and if it's fairly self-descriptive.

If White Rose is to be the name, and it is, I feel it needs more than just those two words. White Rose Centre would be better, though as it's not that close to the mall that's slightly misleading. "White Rose Business Park" would work too, though it doesn't make it quite as obvious that the mall also exists. I suppose that makes the chosen name a reasonable compromise.

Provision of a large additional car park (and calling it White Rose Parkway) would have been smart, but alas we are where we are. Moving the mall's bus station to somewhere along the main pedestrian access route between the station and the mall, which ideally would be entirely enclosed as at Meadowhall Interchange, would also help. The current bus station is poor, and a pain to access since Debenhams closed.

intu was a large company with a few flagship retail parks in its domain. Remember on the Manchester Metrolink system, TfGM seemed not at all worried about ensuring the original intu name appearing on both tram station boards and the tram destination screen when that new tram line was opened.

I suspect most people had never heard of intu until the news stories about their impending financial collapse. Yes, TfGM were quite happy to use the name... but why? It added nothing of value to the public who use the service. Presumably it was added at some point in the planning process, probably at the request of intu themselves. This raises a number of questions. For example did intu contribute to the funding of the tram line? Did this afford them (rightly or wrongly) influence over decisions such as stop names?
Of course without the pandemic, intu probably wouldn't have failed and the stop would still be called intu Trafford Centre... but pretty much everyone in Manchester and beyond would have never referred to it by that full name.

 

[Bartsimho]

I mean I can name some other poor stations names:

Sandwell and Dudley which is nowhere near Dudley (Should probably be Sandwell and Oldbury)
Telford Central should be just Telford (Extra odd as there has never another Telford station).
Langwith-Whaley-Thorns should probably be Langwith and Whaley-Thorns as they are different villages.
Capenhurst should probably be Capenhurst and Great Sutton

 

[zwk500]

I mean I can name some other poor stations names:

Sandwell and Dudley which is nowhere near Dudley (Should probably be Sandwell and Oldbury)
Telford Central should be just Telford (Extra odd as there has never another Telford station).
Langwith-Whaley-Thorns should probably be Langwith and Whaley-Thorns as they are different villages.
Capenhurst should probably be Capenhurst and Great Sutton

How many of these make it materially harder for anybody to use the railway network though? Swapping a hyphen for an ampersand or dropping 'Central' is completely irrelevant, isn't it?

 

[Spartacus]

Think less shopping centre and more business park, which is pretty much adjacent to the station

Wasn't just the 'Arlington Business Centre' for many years, which leaves it open to becoming irrelevant if the name's changed again.

I'm still of a mind that it's a fop to the White Rose Centre for them to remove opposition to the Leeds clean air zone, which was originally mean to encompass the WRC. I'm sure it'll raise it's head again in one form or another.

 

[dk1]

Meadowhall seems to have worked okay as a station name since 1990.

 

[Spartacus]

Meadowhall seems to have worked okay as a station name since 1990.

Meadow Hall's been the name of the area for a long long time, and two station have previously carried the name (Meadow Hall & Wincobank - LNER, and Wincobank & Meadow Hall - LMS) so dropping the space wasn't a big leap.

How Meadowhall got its name - hundreds of years before the Sheffield mega mall was built

Sheffield’s Meadowhall shopping centre attracts around 30 million visitors a year, but how many stop to wonder how it got its name?

www.thestar.co.uk

 

[dk1]

Meadow Hall's been the name of the area for a long long time, and two station have previously carried the name (Meadow Hall & Wincobank - LNER, and Wincobank & Meadow Hall - LMS) so dropping the space wasn't a big leap.

How Meadowhall got its name - hundreds of years before the Sheffield mega mall was built

Sheffield’s Meadowhall shopping centre attracts around 30 million visitors a year, but how many stop to wonder how it got its name?

www.thestar.co.uk

Cheers. One of my shopping centres of choice & always has been. So convenient & well connected.

 

[The exile]

Telford Central should be just Telford (Extra odd as there has never another Telford station).

Before it opened, if travelling to Telford by train people would presumably have been used to using Wellington. Calling the new station Telford Central was therefore a “locator” - especially as Wellington gained the suffix “Telford West” at the same time. In general though, the best thing to do with existing station names is to leave them as they are - about the only reason for changing being if they are named for a “thing” that then moves elsewhere. Don’t think there is a serious issue with stations such as “Bat & Ball” or “Arsenal” - whereas if the latter had been “Highbury Stadium” or even more so “Arsenal Football Ground” it would be. That is of course turning a blind eye to the fact that the arsenal in question was in Woolwich!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Before it opened, if travelling to Telford by train people would presumably have been used to using Wellington. Calling the new station Telford Central was therefore a “locator” - especially as Wellington gained the suffix “Telford West” at the same time.

Talking of "new towns" that have the railway station with a suffix of "Central" in the station name, a much larger settlement with a railway station of the "new town" building post-war era was that of Milton Keynes Central.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Meadowhall seems to have worked okay as a station name since 1990.

As others have said, Meadowhall (the mall) takes its name from the area. Also the station is well linked to the mall by a substantial covered walkway, not an uncovered path across a car park to a closed department store.

 

[YorksLad12]

Provision of a large additional car park (and calling it White Rose Parkway) would have been smart, but alas we are where we are. Moving the mall's bus station to somewhere along the main pedestrian access route between the station and the mall, which ideally would be entirely enclosed as at Meadowhall Interchange, would also help. The current bus station is poor, and a pain to access since Debenhams closed.

It's been a while since I last visited, but M&S took/are taking over the former Debenhams space - have they closed the back doors off? That would be daft, as you lose all of the passing trade between the bus stands and the main centre.

Wasn't just the 'Arlington Business Centre' for many years, which leaves it open to becoming irrelevant if the name's changed again.

Why was it called Arlington, and not Systime (after the main tenant)? It used to be next door to Barbican, if you ever watched Edge of Darkness

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's been a while since I last visited, but M&S took/are taking over the former Debenhams space - have they closed the back doors off? That would be daft, as you lose all of the passing trade between the bus stands and the main centre.

The side facing the mall is M&S, but the side that used to open to the bus station is now closed off. This means bus passengers have to walk around the corner to the nearest mall entrance. Not so bad in nice weather unless you've bought a load of stuff, but a real pain if the weather is more typical for Yorkshire!

 

[dk1]

As others have said, Meadowhall (the mall) takes its name from the area. Also the station is well linked to the mall by a substantial covered walkway, not an uncovered path across a car park to a closed department store.

Meadowhall is pretty much as perfect an interchange as you can get. Train/tram/bus/road and a shopping centre that contains a Wetherspoon. White Rose has one too now so will be making a beeline as soon as it opens.

Pacers we’re still classed as the new kids on the block first time I visited Meadowhall.

 

[Grumpy]

Moving the mall's bus station to somewhere along the main pedestrian access route between the station and the mall, which ideally would be entirely enclosed as at Meadowhall Interchange, would also help. The current bus station is poor, and a pain to access since Debenhams closed.

Not disagreeing with your sentiments but I was wondering as to where the main pedestrian route between the station and the mall will be. The current commercial units between the two dont seem to facilitate this as they tend to be security controlled/visitors wear badges etc. Have any drawings been published showing how this will work?

 

[YorksLad12]

Not disagreeing with your sentiments but I was wondering as to where the main pedestrian route between the station and the mall will be. The current commercial units between the two dont seem to facilitate this as they tend to be security controlled/visitors wear badges etc. Have any drawings been published showing how this will work?

Short answer: there isn't one.

Longer answer: I'm assuming that you exit the station, then take the footpath alongside the track that Google shows (it doesn't look paved/made up to me, so might not be an actual footpath in the sense we mean); turn onto "Woodland Walk", down the side of the staff car park; cut through there to the zebra crossing; and you're in (or will be, once you walk round the car park. Or, don't turn, but walk as far as the coach drop-off point and use the crossings there.

As I remember, the bus station was supposed to be where the coach drop-off is, round the back - and right next to the railway line. The bus operators wouldn't have gone for that, as they would lose time running round the site (they stopped through services running through yonks ago, which was annoying when sat outside Sainsbury's waiting for one). Perfect spot for a combined bus and train station a la Meadowhall though.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Not disagreeing with your sentiments but I was wondering as to where the main pedestrian route between the station and the mall will be. The current commercial units between the two dont seem to facilitate this as they tend to be security controlled/visitors wear badges etc. Have any drawings been published showing how this will work?

Short answer: there isn't one.

Longer answer: I'm assuming that you exit the station, then take the footpath alongside the track that Google shows (it doesn't look paved/made up to me, so might not be an actual footpath in the sense we mean); turn onto "Woodland Walk", down the side of the staff car park; cut through there to the zebra crossing; and you're in (or will be, once you walk round the car park. Or, don't turn, but walk as far as the coach drop-off point and use the crossings there.

As I remember, the bus station was supposed to be where the coach drop-off is, round the back - and right next to the railway line. The bus operators wouldn't have gone for that, as they would lose time running round the site (they stopped through services running through yonks ago, which was annoying when sat outside Sainsbury's waiting for one). Perfect spot for a combined bus and train station a la Meadowhall though.

This is really one of the main issues with this new station- it's a bit half-arsed and isn't going to be well integrated with either the business park or the shopping centre which it purports to serve. Meadowhall Interchange is exactly the example that should be followed as much as possible here, but it isn't being followed at all. The platforms of the new station look to be well designed, with substantial canopies offering cover from the elements far better than what is provided at Meadowhall, especially the Barnsley line platforms... but it all falls apart once you leave the station. Whereas Meadowhall Interchange has lovely enclosed and heated footbridges linking to the shopping centre, White Rose will have an unsurfaced path leading to a long walk across roads and car parks.

I suppose that calling it "White Rose Centre" (as per the original thread discussion) would mean the developers would have to spend a bit more brass on actually integrating it properly. Clearly it's far easier to give it a vague name and leave people to fend for themselves.

 

[Grumpy]

Short answer: there isn't one.

Longer answer: I'm assuming that you exit the station, then take the footpath alongside the track that Google shows (it doesn't look paved/made up to me, so might not be an actual footpath in the sense we mean); turn onto "Woodland Walk", down the side of the staff car park; cut through there to the zebra crossing; and you're in (or will be, once you walk round the car park. Or, don't turn, but walk as far as the coach drop-off point and use the crossings there.

As I remember, the bus station was supposed to be where the coach drop-off is, round the back - and right next to the railway line. The bus operators wouldn't have gone for that, as they would lose time running round the site (they stopped through services running through yonks ago, which was annoying when sat outside Sainsbury's waiting for one). Perfect spot for a combined bus and train station a la Meadowhall though.

Thanks for that. If true, totally impracticable. When 61653HTAFC describes it as "bit half-arsed" he's being too complimentary. Needed to be further west and better integrated with the shopping centre and buses.