I suppose this says quite a lot about your arguments.Yes I am talking anecdotally. I'm not in a position to need to provide you any evidence.
I suppose this says quite a lot about your arguments.Yes I am talking anecdotally. I'm not in a position to need to provide you any evidence.
Hardly. I actually work on the railway. Unlike some armchair warriors I have actual first hand experience of the travelling public , and their experiences and travel patterns. At the end of the day statistics can be made to suit any argument (that's why we are probably stuck with HS2 in the first place). Sometimes a bit of context and real life experience can help a debate. Your statement is purely lazy and frankly offensive.I suppose this says quite a lot about your arguments.
All of your arguments are something of a race to the bottom - why isn’t there enough spent on the south west? Why does Yorkshire get a good service? What is the need for HS2? The thought process isn’t exactly comprehensive or network-wide, it’s pitting different areas against each other .Hardly. I actually work on the railway. Unlike some armchair warriors I have actual first hand experience of the travelling public , and their experiences and travel patterns. At the end of the day statistics can be made to suit any argument (that's why we are probably stuck with HS2 in the first place). Sometimes a bit of context and real life experience can help a debate. Your statement is purely lazy and frankly offensive.
It's far from a race to the bottom in my eyes, it's just it gets boring seeing the same regions get all the spending , all the time. I spend a fair amount of time up north, so I'm not in some south west bubble. The amount of expenditure you see up there is mind blowing. Trust me, coming home to the south west it is very noticeable. All I consistently argue for is a fairer share of the pie instead of just forever throwing money at the north , particularly when that (OOC) will actually worsen the lives of travellers to London throughout the south and south Wales. I've nothing against the north getting money spent on it, just not at the expense of other frankly more needy regions. You only need to look at railway stations up north compared with ones down south. The northern ones are in a far better state in terms of amenities, transport links, etc etc. I'm just asking for the south west , south and south Wales to benefit the way the north may do from HS2.All of your arguments are something of a race to the bottom - why isn’t there enough spent on the south west? Why does Yorkshire get a good service? What is the need for HS2? The thought process isn’t exactly comprehensive or network-wide, it’s pitting different areas against each other .
I’m not trying to be offensive but it lowers the tone of the conversation when you refuse to use statistics - in your eyes your unprovable anecdotes are superior to others’ hard facts - I would like to have a genuine conversation rather than shutting down avenues of debate which challenge your own thinking (not least without stooping to personal insults!). But have a nice day
In a new topic, can you define ‘fair share’?All I consistently argue for is a fairer share of the pie
Totnes has high long-distance sales because the trendy town and its picturesque South Hams hinterland are home to many media and arts and other business people who travel frequently to London and other big cities, or they regularly come to stay in 2nd homes at weekends. Because the local service between Newton Abbot and Plymouth is fairly limited, long distance trains, both XC and GWR, become the de facto local regional expresses for the area and carry many local passengers as well. Routinely cutting these stops out may lose many of these lucrative passengers and trying to maintain frequency of calls on local slows alone would require a lot more services, particular difficult to justify commercially at quieter off peak times even if paths could be found which would become more difficult with faster (albeit marginally) expresses on the largely double track railway. Tiverton Parkway is a major railhead for much of north Devon; would everyone currently using it be willing or able to drive the extra 17 miles to Taunton (and immediately 17 miles back if being dropped off)? How much extra journey and interchange time would a local train connection to Taunton add? Being able to add such stops on most services today is a direct result of modern traction trends, particularly since the HSTs in the 1980s with their significant boost in power/weight ratio versus their predecessors. With steam and early diesel, the fastest express journeys were often only possible by missing out stops as the acceleration back to cruising speed could be painfully slow. Totnes in particular was difficult to serve in that era because of its location in a dip between steep banks.In all honesty, yes I probably would drop Totnes and Tiverton, with the stopper picking up passengers from these two places. The passengers would then need to board London trains at Newton Abbot or Taunton. Not ideal, but that is the way you get the under 3 hour journey with the present infrastructure constraints. I of course would not knock out Exeter, as it probably has more London bound travel than Plymouth , despite Exeters smaller size.
I understand this but the truth is that the North is simply more populated and economically important. These are statistics that you dismiss, and I can understand that - they weaken your argument - but in terms of investment prioritisation the focus on HS2 to the North is understandable. To get back on topic the aim of OOC is in part to offer the SW decent access to HS2 - it will be useful for some journeys although we can argue over how many - and thus I would hope that the investment in GWML platforms at OOC will provide additional routeing benefits for SW passengers which outweigh the slight increase in journey time. Glass half full and all that!It's far from a race to the bottom in my eyes, it's just it gets boring seeing the same regions get all the spending , all the time. I spend a fair amount of time up north, so I'm not in some south west bubble. The amount of expenditure you see up there is mind blowing. Trust me, coming home to the south west it is very noticeable. All I consistently argue for is a fairer share of the pie instead of just forever throwing money at the north , particularly when that (OOC) will actually worsen the lives of travellers to London throughout the south and south Wales. I've nothing against the north getting money spent on it, just not at the expense of other frankly more needy regions. You only need to look at railway stations up north compared with ones down south. The northern ones are in a far better state in terms of amenities, transport links, etc etc. I'm just asking for the south west , south and south Wales to benefit the way the north may do from HS2.
By that argument (that the north is more populated and economically important), we should be angling all spending at the south east. The fact is we need to begin to level this country up. The current s*it shower have no interest in doing that. Levelling up is not and should not just be throwing money at a part of the north. Wealth needs to be spread. And not just to Manchester and Leeds.I understand this but the truth is that the North is simply more populated and economically important. These are statistics that you dismiss, and I can understand that - they weaken your argument - but in terms of investment prioritisation the focus on HS2 to the North is understandable. To get back on topic the aim of OOC is in part to offer the SW decent access to HS2 - it will be useful for some journeys although we can argue over how many - and thus I would hope that the investment in GWML platforms at OOC will provide additional routeing benefits for SW passengers which outweigh the slight increase in journey time. Glass half full and all that!
These places on HS2 will have an OOC stop at all. Maybe they won't like it, but I suspect it'll give them more options.This attitude makes my blood boil. Because the minute anyone suggests slowing down a train to Edinburgh or Manchester by even a few minutes and there would be uproar. If we are looking to encourage use of public transport we should be striving for journeys from say Plymouth to London of under 3 hours. Headline 2hr xx minutes Plymouth to London could be a game changer. It would not be tolerated from northern cities to London, and slowing shouldn't be tolerated from Western cities either. What a sad state off affairs that some think the south west should be slowed down, whilst the north benefits from faster Hs2 journeys.
In all honesty, yes I probably would drop Totnes and Tiverton, with the stopper picking up passengers from these two places. The passengers would then need to board London trains at Newton Abbot or Taunton. Not ideal, but that is the way you get the under 3 hour journey with the present infrastructure constraints. I of course would not knock out Exeter, as it probably has more London bound travel than Plymouth , despite Exeters smaller size.
Depends a bit where the High Speed line rejoins the existing line. North of Newton Abbot and it probably wouldn't save more than 5 minutes max. North of Totnes maybe a bit more. But the most useful option, a High Speed line most of the way to Plymouth, could knock half an hour off the journey times, so then you'd easily be looking a sub-3-hours Plymouth to London.
I don’t think anyone is asking for a full HS line, but the infrastructure is falling apart, and there there has been very little spending in the region. Thinking more about for example electrification, even Bristol hasn’t received it. The local trains are some of the oldest in the country and there’s nothing more than a vague notion new ones may order at some point. A lot of the stations have seen no work in years, many are still in FGW colours, and some even have branding older than that.Fair enough, however can you be sure that the time savings would result in more people travelling, or does that result in the overall numbers reducing.
For example you'd need an extra 3% traveling from Plymouth to cover for a 10% reduction in the number of passengers at Totnes. However that's a very rough guide, as it doesn't account for the extra income for Plymouth to London tickets over Totnes to London tickets, nor does it account for the local travel to/from Plymouth or Totnes.
A full HS line would unlikely be justifiable for the South West with a population of circa 6 million (which includes Bristol/Gloucestershire as well as Plymouth and Cornwall, so quite a geographic spread and so not all that useful for a single line - unlike HS2), whilst that's about double that is the Manchester urban area Manchester isn't that far from Liverpool and goes past the West Midlands, all of which adds a lot of population to the catchment is train services.
Of course we need to level up, but if you want to level up quickly and redistribute wealth from London then the fact remains that a better way of doing that is by concentrating on the North - for starters. I am sure you can see that there has to be a degree of priority - Plymouth for example obviously deserves a better service than say Looe due to population and economics. (And don’t forget that there has been decent investment in SW rail - 2tph on Cornish main line, Cornwall Metro, Okehampton, MetroWest coming in (and hopefully Portishead if they get round to it!), and loads of stations round Exeter. If they could finish off electrification to Bristol that would also be great). It’s not a race to the bottom, it’s more how can we level up the whole country - and HS2 as originally proposed was a fantastic way of improving connectivity between the country’s second, third and fourth largest economic areas (Brum/Manchester/Leeds). OOC as planned should have tied into that and provided another option for better connectivity (it should have been a quicker way to reach Leeds/Newcastle for example). Let’s hope that future governments can finish off HS2 and provide genuinely beneficial interchange opportunities for the SW so it doesn’t just become about getting to London ASAP. For what it’s worth I also agree with your XC comment, it’s ridiculous that we’re running four carriage trains between massive cities - but as you say that’s probably a question for another thread.By that argument (that the north is more populated and economically important), we should be angling all spending at the south east. The fact is we need to begin to level this country up. The current s*it shower have no interest in doing that. Levelling up is not and should not just be throwing money at a part of the north. Wealth needs to be spread. And not just to Manchester and Leeds.
On your other point, I still just cannot see virtually any journeys from anywhere west of Swindon or Westbury that will be cheaper, quicker and convenient by HS2. What is needed in this country is a genuinely decent, quick, high capacity XC network. But that's another debate.
I don’t think anyone is asking for a full HS line, but the infrastructure is falling apart, and there there has been very little spending in the region. Thinking more about for example electrification, even Bristol hasn’t received it. The local trains are some of the oldest in the country and there’s nothing more than a vague notion new ones may order at some point. A lot of the stations have seen no work in years, many are still in FGW colours, and some even have branding older than that.
All we need now is a OOC to Gatwick/Brighton service and the South is well connected.I understand this but the truth is that the North is simply more populated and economically important. These are statistics that you dismiss, and I can understand that - they weaken your argument - but in terms of investment prioritisation the focus on HS2 to the North is understandable. To get back on topic the aim of OOC is in part to offer the SW decent access to HS2 - it will be useful for some journeys although we can argue over how many - and thus I would hope that the investment in GWML platforms at OOC will provide additional routeing benefits for SW passengers which outweigh the slight increase in journey time. Glass half full and all that!
There is a languishing proposal for a rather inconvenient station for the Overground service on the WLL, but the Southern service which currently runs from East Croydon would pass near OOC and Willesden Junction without calling at either.All we need now is a OOC to Gatwick/Brighton service and the South is well connected.
How would you do that? There is no connection to the WLLAll we need now is a OOC to Gatwick/Brighton service and the South is well connected.
How would you do that? There is no connection to the WLL
But what are those minutes for? Just “lost” or with a benefit.Which stops in the West Country do you propose dropping? Don't you think if that was doable it would already have happened?
This attitude makes my blood boil. Because the minute anyone suggests slowing down a train to Edinburgh or Manchester by even a few minutes and there would be uproar.
Why? What will that “headline” achieve?If we are looking to encourage use of public transport we should be striving for journeys from say Plymouth to London of under 3 hours. Headline 2hr xx minutes Plymouth to London could be a game changer.
Slowed by giving connectivity options.It would not be tolerated from northern cities to London, and slowing shouldn't be tolerated from Western cities either. What a sad state off affairs that some think the south west should be slowed down, whilst the north benefits from faster Hs2 journeys.
Gibberish. You seem to mistake your own personal experience for the wider population. LHR is widely used by the southwest as family and freinds from there can attest to - but at the moment they drive it. With OOC the train becomes an option (as it would for me if Chiltern send some down to it - currently I add to the M25). Time being less of an issue vs ease and cost (esp considering airport parking).Not many people actually travel from the south west to Heathrow. It is one of those airports most people use very occasionally if at all. I've used it once in 10 years. Bristol, Exeter Cardiff and Newquay are far more relevant to people living in the West.
Or if HS2 are so attractive and cheap… people will follow that.And the last point, as I keep saying, people in Bristol, Cardiff and Plymouth are not going to travel to the north using HS2. They will continue to use XC trains. That is unless XC trains are purposely made more expensive and downgraded in order to FORCE people to travel 100s of miles east in order to travel back north and west.
While I am in full support of stopping everything at OOC, your comment is contradictory. How much time will changing at OOC save vs Paddington for Heathrow - 15 minutes maybe? I'd be surprised if this persuades many to take the train to the airport who currently drive.Gibberish. You seem to mistake your own personal experience for the wider population. LHR is widely used by the southwest as family and freinds from there can attest to - but at the moment they drive it. With OOC the train becomes an option (as it would for me if Chiltern send some down to it - currently I add to the M25). Time being less of an issue vs ease and cost (esp considering airport parking).
I recognise the loss of the Junction WLL<> GWML at North Pole; is it not still possible to make connection via Acton <> Willesden Junction? EDIT- silly me - Acton's t'other side of OOC, so not much help! I guess North Pole could be rearranged and the junction could be reinstated IF there were over-riding 'need', though a need to cross the busy main lines would be another inhibiting factor.How would you do that? There is no connection to the WLL
Fair point, but quite a bit of time surely, more like half an hour? Plus the sense of it being direct vs going in and out unnessecarily?While I am in full support of stopping everything at OOC, your comment is contradictory. How much time will changing at OOC save vs Paddington for Heathrow - 15 minutes maybe? I'd be surprised if this persuades many to take the train to the airport who currently drive.
I think it's fair to hope that one day, sense will be seen and both NLL (more likely) and WLL (less so, and a hike - but strategically more important) - will be revisited for OOC, once the interchange explodes.
Similarly to Stratford, it may be a patchwork affair vs a big bang.
You got there before I could. Utter gibberish. The idea that having to change at Paddington puts people off Heathrow by train, yet the minute they can change at OOC they'll ditch the car is preposterous!While I am in full support of stopping everything at OOC, your comment is contradictory. How much time will changing at OOC save vs Paddington for Heathrow - 15 minutes maybe? I'd be surprised if this persuades many to take the train to the airport who currently drive.
While I am in full support of stopping everything at OOC, your comment is contradictory. How much time will changing at OOC save vs Paddington for Heathrow - 15 minutes maybe? I'd be surprised if this persuades many to take the train to the airport who currently drive.
I don't see any reason it would be cheaper, it's only a couple of miles different. You can get very good prices for Heathrow-Paddington-SW journeys now, last time I did that it was about £3 extra including HEX compared to a ticket from Paddington.Fair point, but quite a bit of time surely, more like half an hour? Plus the sense of it being direct vs going in and out unnessecarily?
Cost wise at the moment it’d be the fare all the way to Padd and then Padd to LHR (quite pricey?). This’d be notably cheaper also.
Although dependent on the connection time provided by journey planners at OOC, could allow tighter connections, and therefore theoretically faster journeys when a change at Paddington was involved.the only other significant saving could be walk distance between services
I wonder if GWR will start quoting times from OOC as London to XXX times?However as Plymouth to OOC would be more likely to achieve a sub 3 hour journey time then to Paddington some may suggest that it would see significant passenger numbers....
Build platforms for the Southern train at Hythe Road I think it's called? Old Oak Common Lane is planned to have platforms for the West London Orbital and North London Link.How would you do that? There is no connection to the WLL
Right, so it not really OOC to Brighton then.Build platforms for the Southern train at Hythe Road I think it's called? Old Oak Common Lane is planned to have platforms for the West London Orbital and North London Link.