Future of the Settle to Carlisle, Bentham and Ribble Valley lines

[30907]

Half the train length in winter works. It’s quiet compared to the peak season. I travelled on a 2 car the other week (it was a Friday which is a traditionally busier day on the route) on the 0748 and it was quiet (less than 50% occupancy until Appleby and not much more thereafter) whereas in summer this train runs as a 4 car with more or less the same proportion of passengers.

TBH I am pleasantly surprised that this diagram (second rouhd trip is the 1518) warrants 4 on a summer weekday! By contrast the 0920 which is 3 could do with being 4 on a Saturday much of the year (I think it ran as 5 sometimes in the staycation summer, which was problematic) - a Mk5a set probably seats much the same as 4-158.

 

[Neptune]

a Mk5a set probably seats much the same as 4-158.

4 car 158 - 268 seats - 4 wheelchair spaces, 4 bike spaces
Mk 5 set - 30FC 225 SC seats - 2 wheelchair spaces, 2 bike spaces

 

[HSTEd]

More than new stock, I think by far the most important investment would be resignalling.

My understanding from the National Electronic Sectional Appendix is there are still a lot of signal boxes.

That has to be hurting the case for keeping the line open long term, if it could all be controlled from an ROC it would save quite a bit of money.

 

[Ken H]

More than new stock, I think by far the most important investment would be resignalling.

My understanding from the National Electronic Sectional Appendix is there are still a lot of signal boxes.

That has to be hurting the case for keeping the line open long term, if it could all be controlled from an ROC it would save quite a bit of money.

I wonder if Garsdale could be replaced with intermediate block. And Settle Jct controlled by a small panel in Hellifield box. Or even sweep away Hellifield and Settle Jct with an extension to York control area (Which controls to Skipton anyway)

 

[The Planner]

More than new stock, I think by far the most important investment would be resignalling.

My understanding from the National Electronic Sectional Appendix is there are still a lot of signal boxes.

That has to be hurting the case for keeping the line open long term, if it could all be controlled from an ROC it would save quite a bit of money.

Its low down the list, even the Cumbrian coast isn't being looked at apart from life extension.

 

[InkyScrolls]

More than new stock, I think by far the most important investment would be resignalling.

My understanding from the National Electronic Sectional Appendix is there are still a lot of signal boxes.

That has to be hurting the case for keeping the line open long term, if it could all be controlled from an ROC it would save quite a bit of money.

There are nine (Hellifield, Settle Jct., Blea Moor, Garsdale, Kirkby Stephen, Appleby North, Kirkby Thore, Culgaith and Howe & Co.), ten if you include Low House NBC. The amount it would cost to convert Skipton to Carlisle to TCB is many times greater than the cost of the status quo and is nowhere near even being considered.

The single greatest performance improvement would be raising the linespeed and thereby reducing journey times - the work for this has already been completed and is now contingent on NwR upgrading the maintenance regime.

 

[yorksrob]

My priority

I feel for Northern trying to keep train lengths right for demand. In winter Settle can become a ghost town. The tuesday market attracts few stalls and the cafes are empty. But, even in January, the place can become a bit busy if the weather lets up a bit. Its probably busy today - the sun is out. Maybe today is a day when some trains need 3 cars. But demand will fall off a cliff about 4 when it starts to get dark.

Well, the 10:49 drops to two carriages in winter. One can't complain really because while its busy its not crowded.

I fear the bigger issue is in summer where some of the trains become generally a bit crowded !

 

[The Planner]

There are nine (Hellifield, Settle Jct., Blea Moor, Garsdale, Kirkby Stephen, Appleby North, Kirkby Thore, Culgaith and Howe & Co.), ten if you include Low House NBC. The amount it would cost to convert Skipton to Carlisle to TCB is many times greater than the cost of the status quo and is nowhere near even being considered.

The single greatest performance improvement would be raising the linespeed and thereby reducing journey times - the work for this has already been completed and is now contingent on NwR upgrading the maintenance regime.

Don't be too sure about that.....

 

[InkyScrolls]

Don't be too sure about that.....

A cryptic statement - are you able to elaborate?

 

[The Planner]

A cryptic statement - are you able to elaborate?

As in there are no immediate plans for the line speed to be increased. There hasn't been a Network Change proposed and as far as I know, its a lot more than maintenance to get the speeds up.

 

[HSTEd]

There are nine (Hellifield, Settle Jct., Blea Moor, Garsdale, Kirkby Stephen, Appleby North, Kirkby Thore, Culgaith and Howe & Co.), ten if you include Low House NBC. The amount it would cost to convert Skipton to Carlisle to TCB is many times greater than the cost of the status quo and is nowhere near even being considered

Is true track circuit block being installed anywhere these days?
In any case would very poorly suited to the line when it only appears to have about fifteen trains per day in each direction

If it was to be resignalled it would almost certainly be on the basis of axle counters, which would enable the signalling solution to be catered to traffic levels.
Keeping ten remote signal boxes staffed is going to be very expensive today and is only going to get more so.

EDiT:
Just realised that Axle counters are still called TCB despite the name. But still, the staffing costs for the S&C will be enormous and will only get worse

 

[InkyScrolls]

As in there are no immediate plans for the line speed to be increased. There hasn't been a Network Change proposed and as far as I know, its a lot more than maintenance to get the speeds up.

I see what you mean - no, I'm aware there's no plan to speed the line up; it's a shame because it would be (comparatively) inexpensive.

Is true track circuit block being installed anywhere these days?
In any case would very poorly suited to the line when it only appears to have about fifteen trains per day in each direction.

It is - but as you say, there really is no point for the S&C.

Keeping ten remote signal boxes staffed is going to be very expensive today and is only going to get more so.

I suspect the next change will be ERTMS, but that is decades away at least.

 

[yorksrob]

It is - but as you say, there really is no point for the S&C.

We are through the looking glass here.

Why is it whenever people say there's no point in the S&C, people feel duty bound to fall in line ?

 

[InkyScrolls]

We are through the looking glass here.

Why is it whenever people say there's no point in the S&C, people feel duty bound to fall in line ?

That's not what I said (though I understand the confusion) - I meant there's no point upgrading the S&C to TCB signalling, given the low usage and long-term viability of cheaper alternatives, rather than no point in the S&C at all.

 

[yorksrob]

That's not what I said (though I understand the confusion) - I meant there's no point upgrading the S&C to TCB signalling, given the low usage and long-term viability of cheaper alternatives, rather than no point in the S&C at all.

Oh yes, I agree with that. Precious resources need to be aimed at the 1960's - 90's power boxes that can deteriorate quite badly, rather than the few mechanical boxes that require little maintenance and are good for centuries.

 

[deltic08]

Carry on to Glasgow?

I would second that. If I want to go to Glasgow it is a 25 mile trip by car south to York or 33 mile trip north to Darlington with a change at Edinburgh. If there was a Leeds-Glasgow through train, I would prefer driving 30 miles to Skipton and catch a through train to Glasgow even if it is only a 90mph 158..

 

[ChrisC]

I would second that. If I want to go to Glasgow it is a 25 mile trip by car south to York or 33 mile trip north to Darlington with a change at Edinburgh. If there was a Leeds-Glasgow through train, I would prefer driving 30 miles to Skipton and catch a through train to Glasgow even if it is only a 90mph 158..

Is there more of a business case for a Leeds to Glasgow service via S&C now than there was when through services were withdrawn year ago? Cross Country and LNER no longer run a regular service via Edinburgh from Yorkshire.

 

[greyman42]

Is there more of a business case for a Leeds to Glasgow service via S&C now than there was when through services were withdrawn year ago? Cross Country and LNER no longer run a regular service via Edinburgh from Yorkshire.

Not in terms of journey time, it is much quicker to change at Edinburgh for Queen Street.

 

[Gaz67]

Thought I would provide my balanced opinion of my journey to Carlisle yesterday. Out 2 car back 3 car.

Pros- view is excellent no complaints, layout of tables for 4 and airline style seats is also good, WiFi was fine on both journeys.

Cons- both journeys were cold , the return in the evening bordering on freezing, I didn't take my coat off on either journey and neither did anybody else. When I got off at Hellifield at the front and walked down the train there was a mix of bobblehats and hoods in use, is this a fleet issue or was I unlucky?. The noise from the engines and air con blowing was nonstop, these are noisy trains. Toilets, those hand dryers.

Not a bad train but they are showing their age despite recent overhauls, I stand by my original view that they are average, better than a 150/155, on a par with a 156 and that's about it.

Last point on 1st class with a quote from a favourite film of mine-

"If you build it they will come".

 

[yorksrob]

Not in terms of journey time, it is much quicker to change at Edinburgh for Queen Street.

There was a very good open fare between Leeds and Glasgow via Carlisle.

Is that still there or has the Government removed it yet ?

 

[Grumpy]

Not in terms of journey time, it is much quicker to change at Edinburgh for Queen Street.

Possibly if you need to be exactly at Queen St. station, but if central Glasgow is the target then it's quicker to use the West Coast rather than Edinburgh, and also to Queen St. if you don't mind the short walk.

Thus looking at departures before 10 am next Monday morning on the National Rail website, the Queen St via Edinburgh gives 9 options averaging 4 hours 45 minutes, with a shortest time of 4 hours 33. All require at least 2 changes.

Travelling via the West Coast also gives 9 options, with a variety of change points but mainly only needing 1 change. Here the average falls to 4 hours 25 with a shortest time of 4 hours 13. The latter involves an 18 minute change at Carlisle and a journey from Leeds to Carlisle with 17 stops. Surely a through train not stopping at the S&C wayside halts should be able to do the journey in 3 hours 45 or better even without raising any speed limits

 

[InkyScrolls]

Travelling via the West Coast also gives 9 options, with a variety of change points but mainly only needing 1 change. Here the average falls to 4 hours 25 with a shortest time of 4 hours 13. The latter involves an 18 minute change at Carlisle and a journey from Leeds to Carlisle with 17 stops. Surely a through train not stopping at the S&C wayside halts should be able to do the journey in 3 hours 45 or better even without raising any speed limits

Fag packet calculations based on current timings, and assuming stock capable of 125 mph, suggest the following is possible:-

	Section Minutes	Running Total
LDS	0	0
SKI	26	26
SET	17	43
CAR	82	125
GLC	73	198

So in theory a sub-3 hr 30 min timing is possible. That is entirely reliant on pathing being available, which is even less likely than the business case stacking up!

 

[wilbers]

Just found out about the changes to the car park at Langwathby; the station buildings were on the market a year or two ago for £250,000 - I thought the bit of land past them came with it and the smaller bit before them was a car park owned by the railway but it turns out both car parks were sold. Was talking to someone who dropped someone off at the station when it was dark and got a penalty in the post for overstaying the 10 minute free period by 2 minutes (waited until the train had set off) and hadn't even seen that charges had been introduced.

Outrage over new parking charges at Eden railway station

Langwathby station Outrage has been sparked by the introduction of parking charges at Langwathby railway station. Rail users now have

cwherald.com

Rail users now have to pay £1 per hour or £12 per day to use the car park, which was previously free of charge. Payment must be made via telephone within 10 minutes of arriving on the premises or car owners will be liable to a parking charge of up to £100.

At £12 (or even £6) per day I won't be using it - next station along is Appleby which is only a little further from here and charges £2 per day (and some longer stays at a lower per day rate https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/stations/appleby). If its pay by phone only, and the phone signal is a bit iffy, then any charge at all is a problem if its £100 charge if can't get a signal.

This could be a case of the parking company using completely the wrong comparison, its a smaller station than Appleby so logically shouldn't cost more than that (if anything at all); they may have copied charges from Penrith station which is deliberately on the high side at £12.50 on weekdays (£6.50 at weekends) given its run by Avanti.

 

[D6130]

Just found out about the changes to the car park at Langwathby; the station buildings were on the market a year or two ago for £250,000 - I thought the bit of land past them came with it and the smaller bit before them was a car park owned by the railway but it turns out both car parks were sold. Was talking to someone who dropped someone off at the station when it was dark and got a penalty in the post for overstaying the 10 minute free period by 2 minutes (waited until the train had set off) and hadn't even seen that charges had been introduced.

Outrage over new parking charges at Eden railway station

Langwathby station Outrage has been sparked by the introduction of parking charges at Langwathby railway station. Rail users now have

cwherald.com

At £12 (or even £6) per day I won't be using it - next station along is Appleby which is only a little further from here and charges £2 per day (and some longer stays at a lower per day rate https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/stations/appleby). If its pay by phone only, and the phone signal is a bit iffy, then any charge at all is a problem if its £100 charge if can't get a signal.

This could be a case of the parking company using completely the wrong comparison, its a smaller station than Appleby so logically shouldn't cost more than that (if anything at all); they may have copied charges from Penrith station which is deliberately on the high side at £12.50 on weekdays (£6.50 at weekends) given its run by Avanti.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was always under the impression that the station approach road and car park at Langwathby were the property of the adjacent, appropriately-named and very smelly chicken-processing factory belonging to Frank Bird Ltd.

 

[wilbers]

The access road is shared with Frank Bird, its everything on the left side of it that has been sold. Don't know who owned it when the cafe rented the main building years ago. Think it was listed with a different agent before David Britton - only know that because I was on the mailing list at the time; this was very much in the interesting but not for me category - I ended up buying a shop (with flat above) in town instead which is what I'd been looking for to begin with.

 

[xotGD]

Highly recommended trip when the Craven Pothole Club are organising winch descents down to the bottom of Gaping Gill Cave. Was £20 when held in August 2023.

Visitors FAQ

Craven Pothole Club - Caving and Potholing in the Yorkshire Dales and beyond

www.cravenpotholeclub.org

Extract...

£20 to be winched down to the bottom.

£100 to be winched back up again!

 

[Ken H]

£20 to be winched down to the bottom.

£100 to be winched back up again!

I did the winch. went down Bar Pot and then through to GG main chamber, then up on the winch.

 

[Grumpy]

Most of the Leeds-Morecambe/Carlisle trains pass through Steeton without stopping. The new multi-storey car park cant be long to completion. I wonder if this parking capacity could justify the longer distance trains calling here as a potential railhead for Northbound passengers from the Ilkley/Otley areas. Similarly of course improving the attractiveness for passengers travelling to West Yorkshire from the likes of Colne

 

[Iskra]

Most of the Leeds-Morecambe/Carlisle trains pass through Steeton without stopping. The new multi-storey car park cant be long to completion. I wonder if this parking capacity could justify the longer distance trains calling here as a potential railhead for Northbound passengers from the Ilkley/Otley areas. Similarly of course improving the attractiveness for passengers travelling to West Yorkshire from the likes of Colne

3/4/6 car EMU’s are much more fit for the purpose of soaking up any additional passengers, than already crowded 2 car DMU’s, with already slow end-to-end journey times. And most regular uses of the car park, will be using it to head to places with an existing direct train anyway.

 

[30907]

Most of the Leeds-Morecambe/Carlisle trains pass through Steeton without stopping. The new multi-storey car park cant be long to completion. I wonder if this parking capacity could justify the longer distance trains calling here as a potential railhead for Northbound passengers from the Ilkley/Otley areas. Similarly of course improving the attractiveness for passengers travelling to West Yorkshire from the likes of Colne

Peak hour trains already stop at Steeton for Leeds business.

As for Ilkley/Otley to beyond Skipton - Steeton isn't particularly convenient to drive to, but if anyone really wanted to avoid the parking problem at Skipton there are plenty of stoppers from Steeton.