Future of the Settle to Carlisle, Bentham and Ribble Valley lines

[Mcr Warrior]

Russell's Teapot strikes again!

Had to 'Google' that to try to prove/disprove whether or not it was a bona-fide analogy. And I'm still confused!

 

[InkyScrolls]

The philosopher Russell once said (paraphrasing) that "one cannot prove there isn't a teapot orbiting the sun". The point being that if one makes a positive claim, and is asked for evidence (e.g. "I believe there is a teapot orbiting the sun" or "there is a market for first class on the S&C"), the burden is on the one claiming to provide evidence, as it is comparatively easy to do so (find the teapot or conduct the survey). It is almost impossible, however, in most situations, to prove a negative claim ("there isn't a teapot orbiting the sun" or "there is not a market for first class on the S&C") - and thus the burden of proof lies with the former.

 

[Neptune]

With through ticketing or the odd train starting from York filling 1st wont be a problem in my opinion. You show me a link to your survey saying 1st class over the S and C isn,t desired and I will do the same saying it is.

It’s funny. I simply asked where the survey is proving that the S&C is crying out for FC (the normal place opinions are gauged on whether something additional is required amongst users of any service). In response you ask me to prove otherwise (why? I haven’t made any such statement that it either does or doesn’t if you read what I put).

You also state where you ’think’ you could fill it. That’s saying to me that as the service stands you don’t actually think it ’cries out’ for FC after all and actually needs to start one station further back where the good people of York and a few through passengers will fill all 30 seats on every service.

Also the amount of excursions with 1st as well as dining options backs my opinion up.

Not really a fair comparison. Excursion trains with FC and dining travel all over the country including plenty of Scenic routes which offer SC only on DMU’s. Are you saying that these routes (including some in the south) should also get loco hauled trains with FC?

The 150/156 s I mentioned were in regards to the Ribblehead service crewed from Blackburn.

Fair enough. That wasn’t clear to me.

As for the wheelchair issue well if anybody trained up on these trains has a solution I would be happy to hear it, consider it an initiative test at work . As i am travelling Hellifield Carlisle tomorrow I suppose I could walk down the train asking opinions on 1st, however being escorted of the train at Carlisle being escorted by BTP with Les Gilpin filming fills me with dread.

Simple solution. Money isn’t going to be spent on these trains to work up the S&C on service trains so no need to go to the expense of extending platforms, removing station foot crossings that would be fouled because of the long train or rebuild the centre coach to contain a disabled loo and disabled spaces.

 

[Ken H]

It’s funny. I simply asked where the survey is proving that the S&C is crying out for FC (the normal place opinions are gauged on whether something additional is required amongst users of any service). In response you ask me to prove otherwise (why? I haven’t made any such statement that it either does or doesn’t if you read what I put).

You also state where you ’think’ you could fill it. That’s saying to me that as the service stands you don’t actually think it ’cries out’ for FC after all and actually needs to start one station further back where the good people of York and a few through passengers will fill all 30 seats on every service.

Not really a fair comparison. Excursion trains with FC and dining travel all over the country including plenty of Scenic routes which offer SC only on DMU’s. Are you saying that these routes (including some in the south) should also get loco hauled trains with FC?

Fair enough. That wasn’t clear to me.

Simple solution. Money isn’t going to be spent on these trains to work up the S&C on service trains so no need to go to the expense of extending platforms, removing station foot crossings that would be fouled because of the long train or rebuild the centre coach to contain a disabled loo and disabled spaces.

The foot crossings at Horton and Ribblehead could be an issue for long trains. Could you squeeze a long train between the foot crossing and the turnouts at the south end of the viaduct at Ribblehead.

 

[yorksrob]

It's an interesting point.

TPE has clearly seen a market for first class on the longer distance routes across the Pennines.

The S&C conveys passengers similar or longer distances, although its mix will probably be more heavily orientated towards leisure than commuter. I don't know whether this mix would lead to more or less first class usage than TPE.

I do remember travelling on 158's with a 1st class saloon though !

 

[Gaz67]

It’s funny. I simply asked where the survey is proving that the S&C is crying out for FC (the normal place opinions are gauged on whether something additional is required amongst users of any service). In response you ask me to prove otherwise (why? I haven’t made any such statement that it either does or doesn’t if you read what I put).

You also state where you ’think’ you could fill it. That’s saying to me that as the service stands you don’t actually think it ’cries out’ for FC after all and actually needs to start one station further back where the good people of York and a few through passengers will fill all 30 seats on every service.

Not really a fair comparison. Excursion trains with FC and dining travel all over the country including plenty of Scenic routes which offer SC only on DMU’s. Are you saying that these routes (including some in the south) should also get loco hauled trains with FC?

Fair enough. That wasn’t clear to me.

Simple solution. Money isn’t going to be spent on these trains to work up the S&C on service trains so no need to go to the expense of extending platforms, removing station foot crossings that would be fouled because of the long train or rebuild the centre coach to contain a disabled loo and disabled spaces.

Not the good people of York but the enormous amount of tourists who are there all year around, selling say 90 tickets a day for a round trip over one of the most famous lines in the world shouldn,t be too difficult with the right marketing , how many people travel on the Scarborough Spa express ?. So any opinions for future services have to be backed up with a survey do they?. You have to forget that this is a loco hauled train, that is not why I am advocating it, its the fact its a new train gathering dust , and in my opinion offers something new to the S and C. As for the disabled access I was asking for an on train solution without any need for platform alteratioms.

 

[greyman42]

Not the good people of York but the enormous amount of tourists who are there all year around, selling say 90 tickets a day for a round trip over one of the most famous lines in the world shouldn,t be too difficult with the right marketing , how many people travel on the Scarborough Spa express ?.

Tourists are very good for the people of York.

 

[Ken H]

Not the good people of York but the enormous amount of tourists who are there all year around, selling say 90 tickets a day for a round trip over one of the most famous lines in the world shouldn,t be too difficult with the right marketing , how many people travel on the Scarborough Spa express ?. So any opinions for future services have to be backed up with a survey do they?. You have to forget that this is a loco hauled train, that is not why I am advocating it, its the fact its a new train gathering dust , and in my opinion offers something new to the S and C. As for the disabled access I was asking for an on train solution without any need for platform alteratioms.

half of the problem is what to do in Carlisle? The cathedral is nice enough but the rest is just pedestrianised streets with the same old shops. Never been to the castle so dont know. York it aint.
Not a lot in Appleby really, and just a few cafes in Settle.
Last time we went to Carlisle, we had a brew and a cake in Costa by the station then got the same unit back.

 

[30907]

Not the good people of York but the enormous amount of tourists who are there all year around, selling say 90 tickets a day for a round trip over one of the most famous lines in the world shouldn,t be too difficult with the right marketing , how many people travel on the Scarborough Spa express ?. So any opinions for future services have to be backed up with a survey do they?. You have to forget that this is a loco hauled train, that is not why I am advocating it, its the fact its a new train gathering dust , and in my opinion offers something new to the S and C. As for the disabled access I was asking for an on train solution without any need for platform alteratioms.

A daily York-Carlisle round trip with some first class seating in the mix would be worth exploring, though whether it would be financially viable as part of Northern's offer I am less sure. It has been proposed often enough!
It would provide additional capacity (possibly allowing a slight economy in the 158 fleet?) - though you would need a standby set.

But there are 13 Mk5a sets - so using just one (or two) of them doesn't make much sense, even if you can sort out the disabled access issue (turn the train at Carlisle after each run, then an ECS move at York?).

 

[Starmill]

You could connect the 1008 York to Leeds with the 1049 Leeds to Carlisle if there were a genuine benefit in doing so, although it would have to find a space through platform 11 or 12 which could be interesting as obviously 7 wouldn't be possible any more. The return service from Carlisle at 1824 could connect with the 2116 Leeds to York, provided a space can be found on platform 8 or 9. And then there's the small matter of a complete rewrite of both unit diagrams which might result in needing an extra unit that's not actually available. All in all it would create an awful lot of fuss for a small gain. It would be incredibly popular on Saturdays though, albeit not with people from Church Fenton who can come back directly but not go there!

 

[30907]

Sorry, managed to post a duplicate without Automerge spotting it

 

[43096]

Not the good people of York but the enormous amount of tourists who are there all year around, selling say 90 tickets a day for a round trip over one of the most famous lines in the world shouldn,t be too difficult with the right marketing , how many people travel on the Scarborough Spa express ?. So any opinions for future services have to be backed up with a survey do they?. You have to forget that this is a loco hauled train, that is not why I am advocating it, its the fact its a new train gathering dust , and in my opinion offers something new to the S and C. As for the disabled access I was asking for an on train solution without any need for platform alteratioms.

So how many of the Mark 5 sets are you proposing using for this?

 

[Gaz67]

A daily York-Carlisle round trip with some first class seating in the mix would be worth exploring, though whether it would be financially viable as part of Northern's offer I am less sure. It has been proposed often enough!
It would provide additional capacity (possibly allowing a slight economy in the 158 fleet?) - though you would need a standby set.

But there are 13 Mk5a sets - so using just one (or two) of them doesn't make much sense, even if you can sort out the disabled access issue (turn the train at Carlisle after each run, then an ECS move at York?).

I've always thought a couple of morning starters from York made sense , I know the mk5 is a pipedream of mine but whatever comes next should seriously consider 1st class .

 

[Grumpy]

I do remember travelling on 158's with a 1st class saloon though !

When Northern Spirit ran the return Leeds-Glasgow service they usually used 158's . At the time they were also using 158's on Trans-Pennine services and these had first class. Occasionally these strayed onto the Glasgow service. They didn't have a first class fare for the Glasgow service so it was OK to sit in the first class.

 

[JonathanH]

half of the problem is what to do in Carlisle?

Part of the solution is not to go there.

 

[deltic08]

half of the problem is what to do in Carlisle? The cathedral is nice enough but the rest is just pedestrianised streets with the same old shops. Never been to the castle so dont know. York it aint.
Not a lot in Appleby really, and just a few cafes in Settle.
Last time we went to Carlisle, we had a brew and a cake in Costa by the station then got the same unit back.

The other half of the problem is what is the crew going to do in Carlisle for six hours unless they they ride back to Leeds/York on the cushions. This is not productive use of crew.

 

[Gaz67]

Part of the solution is not to go there.


Part of the solution is not to go there.

Think you are missing the point, the point of the trip from York to Carlisle is to ride the S and C , with maybe an hour and half leg stretch ,lunch or mooch round the shops. Are we now saying the S and C isn't all that, the whole point of my post is about travelling the route. By the way I think Carlisle is fine, good selection of shops and the Castle worth a visit, no it's not York but to be honest nowhere in the UK is.

Think you are missing the point, the point of the trip from York to Carlisle is to ride the S and C , with maybe an hour and half leg stretch ,lunch or mooch round the shops. Are we now saying the S and C isn't all that, the whole point of my post is about travelling the route. By the way I think Carlisle is fine, good selection of shops and the Castle worth a visit, no it's not York but to be honest nowhere in the UK is.

Anyway I'm now off to Carlisle, on a 2 car 158, first train of the day cancelled.

 

[zwk500]

Think you are missing the point, the point of the trip from York to Carlisle is to ride the S and C , with maybe an hour and half leg stretch ,lunch or mooch round the shops. Are we now saying the S and C isn't all that, the whole point of my post is about travelling the route. By the way I think Carlisle is fine, good selection of shops and the Castle worth a visit, no it's not York but to be honest nowhere in the UK is.

Once people have ridden the S&C, are you expecting them to come again or are you hoping on a sufficiently large turnover of people that you will continuously be able to fill the train with first timers?
People in general go to York because they want to visit York. They don't especially want to spend a day on a train for a lunchtime in Carlisle. A steam train down to Scarborough and back is a nice afternoon excursion, but a train ride over the S&C will be a full day of your holiday gone. Only people who are already inclined towards riding the line will be looking to do that, and you don't need to spend money on fancy trains to attract them.

 

[JonathanH]

Think you are missing the point, the point of the trip from York to Carlisle is to ride the S and C , with maybe an hour and half leg stretch ,lunch or mooch round the shops. Are we now saying the S and C isn't all that, the whole point of my post is about travelling the route. By the way I think Carlisle is fine, good selection of shops and the Castle worth a visit, no it's not York but to be honest nowhere in the UK is.

Once you get north of Appleby, the countryside opens out and it indeed really 'isn't all that'. York to Carlisle is a long way to go for a day, and as others have said uses up a whole day, when there are other more local attractions nearer to York.

Besides the day trip market from York is already catered for by the Dalesman steam trip through the summer. If someone really wants to travel the line as a dedicated day trip it isn't hard to schedule the visit to coincide with that (assuming WCRC sort out the door issue).

 

[Gaz67]

Well where to start, I mention York as a possible starting point for a train or two with through ticketing an option and suddenly the train is full of people travelling to Carlisle from York for a 5 hour stay , not what I was implying at all. If I see any F o SCL out and about I will tell them to amend there literature to Settle Appleby and change to F o SAL, should be time to reprint for summer. As for Carlisle, well I will pop into the tourist information shop and tell them well just to shut really. Nothing further to discuss on this, I will follow the re opening thread with interest but don't expect much to change to be honest, fingers crossed.

 

[Neptune]

Once people have ridden the S&C, are you expecting them to come again or are you hoping on a sufficiently large turnover of people that you will continuously be able to fill the train with first timers?
People in general go to York because they want to visit York. They don't especially want to spend a day on a train for a lunchtime in Carlisle. A steam train down to Scarborough and back is a nice afternoon excursion, but a train ride over the S&C will be a full day of your holiday gone. Only people who are already inclined towards riding the line will be looking to do that, and you don't need to spend money on fancy trains to attract them.

It just appears to be the ‘any excuse with zero substance will do to prove a point’ syndrome which we see all the time. As you say, people do city breaks in York to go to York and perhaps a day trip to the Moors or coast etc….

People who go to York won’t combine it with a day trip over the S&C to Carlisle just because there’s suddenly a direct train. They won’t decide to do a trip to the other side of the country scenic railway or not, it’s too far and a day lost when they’ll be on limited time to visit York and its locale. Going by that rationale York has a direct train to Edinburgh. Do people visit York to have a day trip to Edinburgh? This is a genuine question to those proposing York to Carlisle day trips as a train filler.

With regards to marketing improving the S&C. It is probably the most marketed line in England. Trains run almost empty through the winter and running different types of train will not alter this. It’s a seasonal route which enjoys heavy traffic on summer weekends and school holidays, good loads at the shoulders of that and quiet trains from late Autumn to Easter. Having a flexible DMU fleet of 2,3 or 4 cars to match demand is the best way to run the route.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Anyway I'm now off to Carlisle, on a 2 car 158, first train of the day cancelled.

Cancelled due to extreme flooding at Appleby. I've just been dismembering a tree which came down in front of my train and which would've seen yours cancelled - we passed at Bell Busk!

 

[RAPC]

Russell's Teapot strikes again!

Had to look this up, but that is perfect!

 

[Grumpy]

The other half of the problem is what is the crew going to do in Carlisle for six hours unless they they ride back to Leeds/York on the cushions.

Carry on to Glasgow?

 

[urbophile]

half of the problem is what to do in Carlisle? The cathedral is nice enough but the rest is just pedestrianised streets with the same old shops. Never been to the castle so dont know. York it aint.
Not a lot in Appleby really, and just a few cafes in Settle.
Last time we went to Carlisle, we had a brew and a cake in Costa by the station then got the same unit back.

Appleby is a gem of a town, and Settle is quite attractive too. But admittedly not a lot to do if it's raining.

 

[D6130]

But admittedly not a lot to do if it's raining.

A good few pubs in both towns for lunch and a pint.

 

[yorksrob]

With regards to marketing improving the S&C. It is probably the most marketed line in England. Trains run almost empty through the winter and running different types of train will not alter this. It’s a seasonal route which enjoys heavy traffic on summer weekends and school holidays, good loads at the shoulders of that and quiet trains from late Autumn to Easter. Having a flexible DMU fleet of 2,3 or 4 cars to match demand is the best way to run the route.

The first part of this paragraph isn't correct. During winter numbers fall, and some services can be shortened as a result, however the trains still get decent numbers (every double occupied on a 2 carriage 158) and are far from empty.

However, I agree with your point that 4 carriage 158's are generally fine for the service.

Appleby is a gem of a town, and Settle is quite attractive too. But admittedly not a lot to do if it's raining.

Settle has a decent little town museum as I recall. Has a model of a proposed concrete replacement of Ribblehead viaduct in it from the 1960's !

 

[Neptune]

The first part of this paragraph isn't correct. During winter numbers fall, and some services can be shortened as a result, however the trains still get decent numbers (every double occupied on a 2 carriage 158) and are far from empty.

However, I agree with your point that 4 carriage 158's are generally fine for the service.

Half the train length in winter works. It’s quiet compared to the peak season. I travelled on a 2 car the other week (it was a Friday which is a traditionally busier day on the route) on the 0748 and it was quiet (less than 50% occupancy until Appleby and not much more thereafter) whereas in summer this train runs as a 4 car with more or less the same proportion of passengers. My return on the 1618 (another 2 car unit) was busy with mainly commuters until Appleby and very quiet thereafter until Settle where a few people were picked up (still less than 50% occupancy) and pretty busy from Skipton with people going out on a Friday night.

In other words looking at what we were discussing regarding 5 coach loco hauled trains it would be complete overkill at considerably more expense. If you can’t even get close to filling a 2 car 158 in the winter with all the promotion of the route that goes on then what hope a 5 coach train.

 

[yorksrob]

Half the train length in winter works. It’s quiet compared to the peak season. I travelled on a 2 car the other week (it was a Friday which is a traditionally busier day on the route) on the 0748 and it was quiet (less than 50% occupancy until Appleby and not much more thereafter) whereas in summer this train runs as a 4 car with more or less the same proportion of passengers. My return on the 1618 (another 2 car unit) was busy with mainly commuters until Appleby and very quiet thereafter until Settle where a few people were picked up (still less than 50% occupancy) and pretty busy from Skipton with people going out on a Friday night.

In other words looking at what we were discussing regarding 5 coach loco hauled trains it would be complete overkill at considerably more expense. If you can’t even get close to filling a 2 car 158 in the winter with all the promotion of the route that goes on then what hope a 5 coach train.

I would say that the 10:49 tends to be quite busy in winter, but that's probably more leisure friendly.

 

[Ken H]

The first part of this paragraph isn't correct. During winter numbers fall, and some services can be shortened as a result, however the trains still get decent numbers (every double occupied on a 2 carriage 158) and are far from empty.

However, I agree with your point that 4 carriage 158's are generally fine for the service.



Settle has a decent little town museum as I recall. Has a model of a proposed concrete replacement of Ribblehead viaduct in it from the 1960's !

I feel for Northern trying to keep train lengths right for demand. In winter Settle can become a ghost town. The tuesday market attracts few stalls and the cafes are empty. But, even in January, the place can become a bit busy if the weather lets up a bit. Its probably busy today - the sun is out. Maybe today is a day when some trains need 3 cars. But demand will fall off a cliff about 4 when it starts to get dark.