I completely agree with this. Bypass lanes are often obstructed or too narrow so that I have to stop pedaling to avoid hitting kerbs with the pedals. Often the drainage is poor so they have standing water or mud/silt. The other favourite is vehicles parked close by rendering them useless. Most people will give way to cyclists when required but a significant minority do not. The worst ones are the narrow sections that also have Zebra crossings. Drivers are too busy trying to work out whether they can nip through to watch for pedestrians. The worst example was near my kids school, and right next to a T junction. Around school chucking out time, it was very difficult for traffic heading in the give way direction to move at all. Thankfully it has been rebuilt back to full width.
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20 mph Zones - Extend or Eliminate?
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20mph Wales: Some roads to revert to 30mph after backlash
Transport Secretary Ken Skates says speed limit policy must be "corrected" after a public backlash.www.bbc.co.uk
Some roads to revert to 30mph after backlash
Transport Secretary Ken Skates says the changes to the policy will address the concerns that "a lot of people" have raised "on a consistent basis"
By Cemlyn Davies & Tink Llewellyn
Some roads in Wales will revert to 30mph following backlash at the Welsh government's £34m default 20mph policy.
Transport Secretary Ken Skates said the changes will address the concerns that "a lot of people" have raised "on a consistent basis".
"We've put our hands up to say the guidance has to be corrected," he said.
Swansea council leader Rob Stewart welcomed the change, but said the government must help foot the bill to swap signage.
Mr Skates highlighted the almost half a million signatures to a Senedd petition opposing the policy, brought in under former first minister Mark Drakeford and his transport minister Lee Waters.
"I have friends and family who have signed the petition," he said.
We want 20mph speed limit, say worried villagers
How does the new Wales-wide 20mph speed limit law work?
Ministers must hold nerve on 20mph, urges cycling charity
But the policy has also enjoyed support from groups including those representing cyclists, while some people have even called for it to be extended to areas not covered in the rollout to help make their communities safer.
Mr Skates was put in charge of transport for Wales on 21 March after Vaughan Gething succeeded Mr Drakeford.
"There is generally universal support for 20mph being targeted in areas where there are schools, built up areas like housing estates, and outside hospitals and so-forth," he told North Wales Live on Friday.
"But in many areas, routes that shouldn't have been included, were."
He said the changes will enable individual councils to revert routes back to 30mph where appropriate, adding that this will allow for "radical" changes, if that is "what people want".
Ken Skates says the Welsh government is holding its hands up to say "the guidance has to be corrected"
Mr Skates is expected to address forthcoming changes in a statement to the Senedd on Tuesday afternoon.
Rob Stewart, leader of Swansea council, said Mr Skates' "pragmatic approach" was "to be welcomed".
However, he said the Welsh government should "help us with the cost" of reverting back to 30mph roads.
Mr Skates added that he does not feel it would be fair to place that costs on local authorities, given that councils are making "really tough" decisions.
"I'm not going to say to councils that they need to find the money to make the changes," he said.
The controversial 20mph policy was introduced in Wales in September with the aim of improving road safety. It saw the default speed limit on roads in built up areas cut from 30mph to 20mph.
Mr Stewart added that he anticipated the changes to the policy could affect up to 10 roads in his own local authority.
"I don't think anybody is challenging the requirements or the ambition of the 20mph to make our roads safer, but it's about making sure we've got the balance right," he said.
"So I think it's just about being pragmatic and doing it in a way that's sensible."
Huw Thomas, leader of Cardiff council, said the news was welcome and that it was not possible to "pretend there isn't a half-million-person petition".
He said he was glad the power will rest with local governments and that the work will be "mostly" funded by the Welsh government.
Mr Thomas added that in Cardiff, where most of city was 20mph already, the policy had been "very popular" and that he "certainly can't see many roads changing".
Natasha Asghar, the Welsh Conservative's transport spokesperson, said the party had "consistently voted against the ridiculous 20mph policy involving 97% of previously 30mph roads".
"The Welsh Conservatives want to see this policy scrapped," said the Member of the Senedd.
"A more targeted approach is needed with the support of the Welsh people."
Plaid Cymru leader Rhun ap Iorwerth said: "Over six months have passed since Plaid Cymru tabled a Senedd amendment, and won the vote, gaining a commitment from Welsh government to review the impact of new limits and to empower local authorities to make further exemptions.
"I support the principle of widespread 20mph zones but it's clear that it was implemented very poorly and inconsistently, with too many roads changing to 20mph in places where it felt unreasonable.
"Welsh government must push ahead now and sort it out."
Commom sense seems to have prevailed! I am favour of 20mph on housing estates but not any road houses alongside.
bramling
Veteran Member
I really wish they would get away from this notion that cyclists are in favour of 20 mph speed limits. As a cyclist I find they contribute nothing to safety at all, on the contrary. In particular the bunching of traffic and erratic driving they introduce is an added hazard.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
In London I vastly prefer them. The ability to accelerate faster than traffic and easily cycle in the traffic flow (known as "vehicular cycling") makes one hugely less vulnerable.
I prefer full segregation, but in its absence 20 any day.
The argument is that, whilst many adults are happier sharing roads with other traffic with speeds of over 20mph they are less keen to do so when they are supervising children. Therefore by seeing it at a speed where there's few people who would be limited to cycle it should make cycle update higher.
That's rather simplistic, as there's other factors, for example two way daily flow of 2,500 (or about 200-250 in the morning peak), and so on busiest roads the slower speeds aren't likely to have as much of the desired effect as would be preferred. However, a lot of people don't always understand the wider picture and therefore implement things with good intentions but miss a key element.
That's not too say that 20mph limits don't have a lot of benefits, rather that one has probably been over sold.
Short answer is get rid of them.
I do like when driving on the A21 they have flashing yellows near schools during opening hours. Speeds do drop to 20 when the signs are on and revert back to 30/40 when switched off.
20 is simply to slow as a blanket speed especially when cyclists overtake you.
My local authority ignored what residents said that they do not want a 20mph but the council introduced it anyway by claiming they had the support of the people 'who don't know'.
London is awash with 20mph pushed by Mayor Khan and then we are being asked for a 9% council tax increase to fund this nonsense.
I do like when driving on the A21 they have flashing yellows near schools during opening hours. Speeds do drop to 20 when the signs are on and revert back to 30/40 when switched off.
20 is simply to slow as a blanket speed especially when cyclists overtake you.
My local authority ignored what residents said that they do not want a 20mph but the council introduced it anyway by claiming they had the support of the people 'who don't know'.
London is awash with 20mph pushed by Mayor Khan and then we are being asked for a 9% council tax increase to fund this nonsense.
bramling
Veteran Member
The point about cars being overtaken by cyclists is well made. I’ve overtaken buses in London on a Brompton (in free-flowing traffic), which is a pretty ridiculous state of affairs, and actually a quite dangerous situation - but I’m damned if I’m following a bus at 20 mph and breathing in its rancid fumes.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Is it that ridiculous that the mode of transport that poses a far lower risk to other road users is allowed to go faster?
To be fair it won't be long before all London buses are full electric.
bramling
Veteran Member
Ridiculous or otherwise, it’s pretty hazardous - and something that only a pretty experienced and fit cyclist should attempt. Yet this is something which is now not uncommon.
I wouldn’t be betting my pension on that one!
56% of London buses are already either electric or hybrid or hydrogen powered.
I really don't think Wales is allowing enough time for 20mph limits to bed in. Driving is so much a "seat of the pants" operation that changes to things like normal driving speed take a while to get accustomed to, and that only starts once the driver accepts the new speed. Once a few drivers are doing it regularly, then the reluctant others find they are forced to as well, and then they too gradually get the hang of the new normal.
Back in day, a lot of people customarily broke the 30mph limit. That included me. My wife demanded to know why I was doing it. Being an engineer and fairly logical, I had no answer to that. So I started complying with 30 mph limits. Difficult at first, but I personally got used to it. Following drivers often got very impatient but I refused to accelerate. After a while it became noticeable that more and more other drivers were becoming comfortable with 30mph (possibly due to fear of cameras!).
I see no reason why 20mph can't become an accustomed speed in the same way.
It's totally better in a 20 mph zone if you are a pedestrian, as fast roads are, quite simply, a barrier to travel.
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DelW
Established Member
- Joined
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Driving in Wales a couple of weeks ago, I found the inconsistency and number of changes of limit were the problems for me. Entering one village, there were signs for 40mph, then barely 100m further on were signs for 30mph, then about 30m beyond that, signs for 20mph. Meanwhile in a nearby village, the limit was 50mph on a road where I wasn't happy to do more than 40.
The end result was that much of the time I wasn't sure what limit I was in. Even going through a small village on a minor road, the limit may change four or even six times. If you're dealing with other traffic, parked vehicles, pedestrians, etc. you don't always register every sign, and you simply can't tell from the appearance of the road what limit you might be in. That's even more the case if you've stopped for a shop or for fuel.
I found the best way was to set (or reset) my car's speed limiter each time I went through a change of limit, but doing that is a distraction in itself, especially when you're doing it every few seconds in a village.
The end result was that much of the time I wasn't sure what limit I was in. Even going through a small village on a minor road, the limit may change four or even six times. If you're dealing with other traffic, parked vehicles, pedestrians, etc. you don't always register every sign, and you simply can't tell from the appearance of the road what limit you might be in. That's even more the case if you've stopped for a shop or for fuel.
I found the best way was to set (or reset) my car's speed limiter each time I went through a change of limit, but doing that is a distraction in itself, especially when you're doing it every few seconds in a village.
This is why some councils have minimum lengths for speed limits, so there isn't this constant changing on speed limits. This does mean that sometimes (say) a 40 limit extends or into the countryside perhaps a bit more than perhaps it "should", but that's not too much of an issue in the great scheme of things.
They aren't dropping the policy they are reducing the number of roads it applies to by giving councils discretion. You are probably right that eventually, with strict enforcement it could have become the norm in all built up areas. However, Wales is a democracy and Labour maintains dominance by occasionally backing down when something is very unpopular. More residents of Wales signed the petition than vote Labour. I think the Welsh Labour Party has correctly read public opinion. There was strong support for 20 mph in some areas, moderate support in others and opposition to applying it to main roads (away from schools etc). Watering down the policy should mostly remove it from the political debate while bringing most of the safety benefits of the original plan. The best option would have been to give councils discretion in the first place.
Putting aside the fact that I'm not sure the petition process actually verifies someone's location, this seems a bit of a strange metric to me.
Which in fact they did, at least technically.
What's changing is the guidelines on how they should use that discretion.
Some signatures were removed because they belonged to people living outside of Wales. I didn't sign the petition so I don't know how the Welsh government were able to determine the addresses. Its not a strange metric in a democracy. Welsh Labour looked at the level of opposition and decided it wasn't worth the electoral losses that would have come and modified the policy. The process for changing the policy doesn't matter that much politically. What matters to Welsh Labour is that some roads subject to a 20mph limit will go back to 30mph and voters will notice.
I just think the 20mph restriction should be for (for example) town / city housing estates as that makes sense. May be in and around schools too but everything else, remain as it is and as we have enough 'speed bumps' on some of these roads already which slows most of the traffic down anyway.
Suppose turnout had been higher in the last election resulting in more people having voted Labour than signed the petition. Why would that change your conclusion as to to the level of opposition indicated by the petition?
bramling
Veteran Member
Should that make a difference? Why shouldn’t UK citizens living outside of Wales be able to express a view on this matter, since it potentially affects them?
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Presumably because the petition wasn't just a way of expressing a view, it was a request to the Welsh Government.
Indeed to quote from the (rather strongly worded) petition text:
(Which suggests a certain misunderstanding of how representative democracy is supposed to work, never mind with the legitimacy of policies in election manifestos).
No. One in six residents of a country signing a petition on anything is huge. Exceeding the Labour vote at the last Senedd election is symbolic.
It was a Senedd petition that automatically triggered a debate. Its reasonable that only people living in the jurisdiction of the Welsh Senedd should be able to trigger it having to debate an issue. I am a very frequent visitor to Wales but I don't expect to be able eligible to sign statutory petitions there.
bramling
Veteran Member
Can someone living in Wales sign a petition relating to matters of the UK government? If yes then as far as I’m concerned this is a democratic deficit.
The democratic deficit exists because England with 57 million people is an absurdly large unit for governance but there is a lack of political support to break it into states/provinces/regions like Germany and Italy. 5/6ths of the population in one devolved unit wouldn't work. We shouldn't inflict our national desire for centralisation (but to whinge about it too) on Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Residents of Saxony don't expect to be able to sign petitions to the regional assembly of Brandenburg.
The UK government is even trying to stop low traffic neighbourhoods because Westminster knows traffic situations better than the councilors of towns!
The reason that someone in Wales can do things relating to the UK government is because they can vote for the UK government.
If Dull on Sea decide to give free parking permits to its recipients but charge visitors £15 a day to park anywhere other than private land, should the residents of Megaville be able to influence the council by saying that they are entitled to vote in Dull on Sea.
By all means say that as a resident of Megaville that you're upset by this change, but the bottom line is that as your don't have a vote there you don't get a say.
It's the same at the other end of the spectrum, should people from America, China or India be able to sign petitions about things which the UK government being into law, or even that the EU brings into law?
To give an example, should people from the US be able to sign a petition removing gun controls.in the UK, or to bring in more private healthcare?
341o2
Established Member
- Joined
- 17 Oct 2011
- Messages
- 1,908
I am not sure the campaigners and 'cyclists' are always in line, as the campaigners often seem to be a particular sub group of cyclists.
Then the things that are anti-driver get numbers from the green lobby (who may ride bikes, or at least own them).
Its also not just the right that uses simple slogans. We are battered with '20 saves lives' without really meaningful stats.
And of course most people want 20 limits at least somewhere (eg outside schools, in narrow residential areas) but that support doesn't mean they support Wales style rather fundamentalist application.
With areas with the 20mph limit, nobody seems to give a stuff, even bus drivers.
Chances of being caught, depending on the area, are slim.
I'm all for it, but how do you enforce it with so many roads in the UK at a 20mph speed limit?
Chances of being caught, depending on the area, are slim.
I'm all for it, but how do you enforce it with so many roads in the UK at a 20mph speed limit?
Especially as the police don’t want to enforce unpopular law and get even more grief.
Remember a local copper telling me that a residents association nagged them into setting up a speed trap. They caught every member of the RA committee.
DerekC
Established Member
This does seem to be turning into an echo chamber for the motoring lobby (can you have a chamber that's a lobby??). I remember that as a pedestrian, my chances of surviving being hit by a car at 20mph are eight times higher than at 30mph. Turning all 30mph zones into 20mph ones doesn't make sense, but where cars and pedestrians interact frequently with each other (as in many town centres and housing estates) 20mph zones make perfect sense. And the fact that drivers frequently exceed speed limits is no argument at all.
When in practice would a cyclist even be able to surpass 20mph? Probably not often