A sad day on Trainsplit, paper ticket option removed?

[trainophile]

Just tried to book some tickets for July, got to check-out to find the only option available is now e-ticket. While paper tickets are still valid in the UK I really don't think we should be forced into changing to e-tickets. I hope it's maybe just a blip with the version operated by my browser (Safari) but it was the same on both iPhone and MacBook.

Must admit that I forgot to check whether the forum's site is the same, but as they run on the same software I assume this would be the case.

Very sorry to say I made my purchase elsewhere. Come on guys, please don't force us old codgers into the 21st century until we absolutely have to!

 

[yorkie]

What's the exact journey?

Also do you have a screenshot?

There isn't enough information in your post to look into this.

 

[trainophile]

I'll try to get a screenshot, back in a bit >>>



Sorry messed it up I think. Try again if it's not all there...



Got a few things to do now, back later if there's any replies, I'm not ignoring you.

 

[jfollows]

I just replicated yesterday’s journey, for which I bought tickets at the station, unfortunately the ticket machine because the ticket office was closed, anyway on the site’s ticketing site there was an “(other options)” choice which led me to be able to select “ticket on departure” from the station instead of e-ticket.

It’s in small text after the hard sell trying to get you to use e-tickets but it’s there ……

 

[yorkie]

At that price, you are probably incurring a loss for the retailer by choosing paper tickets.

Using the forum's site, I see "other options":



This brings up the option to get old fashioned paper tickets (which the TOCs charge retailers hefty fees to be collected)

Using the forum's site will help support the forum (well, not for journeys of that price, using TOD, but for other journeys it could!)

 

[JBuchananGB]

Clicking on (other options) brings up the option "I wish to collect my tickets from the station (Ticket On Departure)" and the chance to choose which station to pick up from.

 

[Haywain]

At that price, you are probably incurring a loss for the retailer by choosing paper tickets.

Using the forum's site, I see "other options":

View attachment 157967

Using the forum's site will help support the forum (well, not for journeys of that price using TOD, but for other journeys it could!)

A case for charging for ToD, perhaps, where other options are available and the retailer would make a loss on fulfilment?

 

[yorkie]

A case for charging for ToD, perhaps, where other options are available and the retailer would make a loss on fulfilment?

CrossCountry do that, and possibly others too.

The vast majority of people prefer e-tickets, so it probably isn't necessary, but I don't fully know the economics of it.

The proportion of people who have not yet embraced e-tickets is diminishing all the time; traditional paper tickets (without barcodes) are rare on trains I get.

But yes if too many people chose TOD as an option, something would have to give, but right now I guess it's just a case of absorbing the losses incurred when people make that choice.

 

[AlterEgo]

At that price, you are probably incurring a loss for the retailer by choosing paper tickets.

ToD really ought to be chargeable where etickets are offered as an option. The railway should try to minimise the use of large always-on machines and printing tickets on dead trees; it is supposed to be the environmentally-friendly choice, after all. You want to use more resources? You need to pay for it then.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

How does "e-tickets only" work for journeys involving Merseyrail or LU?

 

[Haywain]

How does "e-tickets only" work for journeys involving Merseyrail or LU?

It doesn't, why do you ask?

 

[yorkie]

How does "e-tickets only" work for journeys involving Merseyrail or LU?

"E-tickets only" could only ever be a concept that applies where e-tickets are available.

There are some flows, which include validity on Merseyrail or LU, which are enabled for e-tickets, but that is quite rare.

It's not relevant to the question asked in this thread.

 

[Ken H]

ToD really ought to be chargeable where etickets are offered as an option. The railway should try to minimise the use of large always-on machines and printing tickets on dead trees; it is supposed to be the environmentally-friendly choice, after all. You want to use more resources? You need to pay for it then.

Maybe if the railway didnt charge an arm and a leg if your phone cant show the e-ticket people would accept the technology. I am not risking a hefty fine for an accidental flat battery so its paper tickets for me. If the railway dump paper tickets or charge extra then i will drive or use the bus.

 

[anothertyke]

Just tried to book some tickets for July, got to check-out to find the only option available is now e-ticket. While paper tickets are still valid in the UK I really don't think we should be forced into changing to e-tickets. I hope it's maybe just a blip with the version operated by my browser (Safari) but it was the same on both iPhone and MacBook.

Must admit that I forgot to check whether the forum's site is the same, but as they run on the same software I assume this would be the case.

Very sorry to say I made my purchase elsewhere. Come on guys, please don't force us old codgers into the 21st century until we absolutely have to!

Totally. 5% of adults all ages and 20% of retirees do not own a smart phone. Why should we be forced into expensive contracts against our will? The base price should be available to 100% of the population. That's partly why we went through the ticket office argument and won a year ago.

 

[trainophile]

So it’s been removed because the ticket is too cheap? That’s a new one. I hoped you’d say it was a blip and was being corrected.

I don’t always buy tickets for my own use, I know without a doubt that my OH would be completely flummoxed by an e-ticket, not being all that confident with technology.

Oh well, such is progress. Glad some sites will still offer paper tickets, at least for a while.

 

[Haywain]

So it’s been removed because the ticket is too cheap? That’s a new one. I hoped you’d say it was a blip and was being corrected.

Except that it hasn't been removed at all. It's just made a bit more difficult to find.

 

[AlterEgo]

Totally. 5% of adults all ages and 20% of retirees do not own a smart phone. Why should we be forced into expensive contracts against our will? The base price should be available to 100% of the population. That's partly why we went through the ticket office argument and won a year ago.

Ticket offices do not offer the best prices. They’re not allowed to give advice on how to undercut the “base” fare!

It’s also wrong to suggest e-tickets are something which should only be available on a phone. There are railways which work perfectly well by simply having codes you can give to the guard. There really is a lack of imagination in this regard.

 

[Adam Williams]

There's a lot of speculation here that is not completely aligned with the truth. This is not happening based on the price of the tickets being purchased, nor is it a cost saving measure taken by the retailer.

This is not a permanent change, it is a temporary change that only impacts a handful of booking sites with the intent of disrupting some booking attempts. The communication around the change I think could have been better, given the negative impact on some legitimate customers.

 

[Wolfie]

ToD really ought to be chargeable where etickets are offered as an option. The railway should try to minimise the use of large always-on machines and printing tickets on dead trees; it is supposed to be the environmentally-friendly choice, after all. You want to use more resources? You need to pay for it then.

That would almost certainly both direct age and direct disability discrimination. Provision of paper tickets very definitely is a reasonable adjustment.

 

[Benjwri]

Although there may be an other options button on the forum site, it does bring up a good point that there, as far as I can find, is no option at all on the new beta, you are forced into e-tickets.

 

[Dai Corner]

So it’s been removed because the ticket is too cheap? That’s a new one. I hoped you’d say it was a blip and was being corrected.

I don’t always buy tickets for my own use, I know without a doubt that my OH would be completely flummoxed by an e-ticket, not being all that confident with technology.

Oh well, such is progress. Glad some sites will still offer paper tickets, at least for a while.

Do you think free to use forums like this should be banned because some would rather write to the letters page of Railway Magazine, incurring the cost of stationery and postage stamps?

 

[Tetchytyke]

5% of adults all ages and 20% of retirees do not own a smart phone. Why should we be forced into expensive contracts against our will? The base price should be available to 100% of the population.

Despite the name, you do not need a smartphone to use an e-ticket. You can print the PDF off and, hey presto, you have your paper ticket.

 

[trainophile]

If you have a printer, which I no longer have as it’s incompatible with my 2020 MacBook Air.

 

[yorkie]

Maybe if the railway didnt charge an arm and a leg if your phone cant show the e-ticket people would accept the technology.

Can you elaborate what you are referring to?

I am not risking a hefty fine for an accidental flat battery so its paper tickets for me.

We have been through this before; e-tickets can be backed up to another device, they could be sent to a travel companion, they can optionally be printed.

If the railway dump paper tickets or charge extra then i will drive or use the bus.

What will happen is that barcode tickets will be the only option but the railway will print it for you on paper; this option is already enabled on some TVMs.

Unfortunately there isn't the option to print a pre- purchased e ticket.

Totally. 5% of adults all ages and 20% of retirees do not own a smart phone. Why should we be forced into expensive contracts against our will? The base price should be available to 100% of the population. That's partly why we went through the ticket office argument and won a year ago.

5 percent? This must be mostly elderly people or people who have restricted mobility? Do you have any breakdown of the demographics? How many truly independent and mobile adults have got no smartphone?

In any case they will be more restricted in other areas, as e tickets are the norm for many events now.

So it’s been removed because the ticket is too cheap? That’s a new one. I hoped you’d say it was a blip and was being corrected.

Who said that?

Can I ask that when replying to anything, that you please use the quote button so it is clear what exactly you are replying to.

Quotes should not be made up .

I don’t always buy tickets for my own use, I know without a doubt that my OH would be completely flummoxed by an e-ticket, not being all that confident with technology.

Oh well, such is progress. Glad some sites will still offer paper tickets, at least for a while.

If you choose not to have a printer and you choose not to have or rely on a smart phone, you may find that the cost of your choices might not be subsidised by everyone else indefinitely.

 

[GWVillager]

There's a lot of speculation here that is not completely aligned with the truth. This is not happening based on the price of the tickets being purchased, nor is it a cost saving measure taken by the retailer.

This is not a permanent change, it is a temporary change that only impacts a handful of booking sites with the intent of disrupting some booking attempts. The communication around the change I think could have been better, given the negative impact on some legitimate customers.

So the option has deliberately been removed on some booking attempts with the view of discouraging passenger usage of paper tickets? Is that correct? If so, that's outrageous.

 

[AlterEgo]

That would almost certainly both direct age and direct disability discrimination. Provision of paper tickets very definitely is a reasonable adjustment.

No it isn’t. There is no requirement to offer paper tickets and loads and loads of businesses and even public services now do not offer them. Reasonable adjustments do not apply to people based solely on their age.

See London Buses for an example. No paper ticketing on the bus, no cash.

Maybe if the railway didnt charge an arm and a leg if your phone cant show the e-ticket people would accept the technology. I am not risking a hefty fine for an accidental flat battery so it’s paper tickets for me. If the railway dump paper tickets or charge extra then i will drive or use the bus.

You don’t need to have an eticket on your phone.

 

[Benjwri]

So the option has deliberately been removed on some booking attempts with the view of discouraging passenger usage of paper tickets? Is that correct? If so, that's outrageous.

i think what they mean is that the paper tickets option is in some way enabling some kind of method of scraping of the splits.

Although given the context I wonder if this is some kind of site that is tryi to act as a middle man by selling tickets which it then buys through TrainSplit and passes on the TOD reference.

 

[Wolfie]

No it isn’t. There is no requirement to offer paper tickets and loads and loads of businesses and even public services now do not offer them. Reasonable adjustments do not apply to people based solely on their age.

See London Buses for an example. No paper ticketing on the bus, no cash.


You don’t need to have an eticket on your phone.

The London Bus example is disingenuous. Firstly the fare is fixed. Secondly it's meaningless until such time as contactless payment is fully accepted on the railway.

Finally l'm intrigued how exactly purchase from a station ticket office or machine would generate an e-ticket....

 

[yorkie]

The London Bus example is disingenuous. Firstly the fare is fixed. Secondly it's meaningless until such time as contactless payment is fully accepted on the railway.

Finally l'm intrigued how exactly purchase from a station ticket office or machine would generate an e-ticket....

The tickets issued these days at an increasing number of machines/offices are paper tickets with (Aztec) barcodes.

They are not technically e tickets but are effectively like printing an e-ticket and then destroying the digital copy!

The old orange card tickets are becoming increasingly rare (at least outside areas such as London, Merseyside etc) and on most trains I get, nearly all passengers present barcodes during ticket inspections.

The old TOD ('Ticket On Departure ') system is antiquated and expensive to run, with TOCs attempting to pass on the cost to retailers.

 

[AlterEgo]

The London Bus example is disingenuous. Firstly the fare is fixed. Secondly it's meaningless until such time as contactless payment is fully accepted on the railway

It’s not disingenuous at all. Some people, including older people, don’t have contactless payment options available to them. Or take the tube if you like. Paper tickets now vastly more expensive than using contactless or Oyster, but no problem at all. Where’s the “reasonable adjustment” there?

I think you should pay more to fulfil your tickets using an expensive, power sucking machine printing on dead trees. You might think it’s unfair but I don’t see any reason why it would discriminate against people on the basis or disability or age. Crosscountry already are charging more. No issue there either.

The tickets issued these days at an increasing number of machines/offices are paper tickets with (Aztec) barcodes.

They are not technically e tickets but are effectively like printing an e-ticket and then destroying the digital copy!

The old orange card tickets are becoming increasingly rare (at least outside areas such as London, Merseyside etc) and on most trains I get, nearly all passengers present barcodes during ticket inspections.

On some railways in Europe no ticket at all is necessary, just a code. You can write that down or memorise it.