Avanti West Coast Cancellations

[D1537]

06:33 got canned a few days ago but I only found out at the bottom of an e-mail I could easily have deleted full of marketing fluff.
Also received another e-mail full of nonsense like playlists for my journey and how to make it more special etc. again with our train crossed-out and cancelled only when scrolling right down the bottom.

Why do Avanti do this? It's almost telling people how terrible they are. Last time LNER canned one of my trains I got a text and an email which was really clear (well, actually I got four emails, but four clear emails are better than one unclear one). This really isn't rocket science.

 

[Ashfordian6]

i agree that it isn't, but one of the main points was drivers etc had not had a rise in 4yrs, so if the cost of living was causing them problems, surely doing a extra shift at £600 would go along way to ease that...

It's not just doing a single extra shift though. It is because of management incompetence around resourcing it's likely to be at least one additional shift every week. And at some point, probably quite quickly, the value of spending time with family and friends becomes more important than what will be less than £300 after tax.

And this takes into no account of how low morale is because of the company stalling on any pay increases for 5 years and counting.

I know my goodwill to help out would be in short supply with any role under when the above situation applies.

 

[Tractor2018]

Easy to be blase about £600 for a shift when you're already on £60k + per year I guess..................I know families surviving on far less than £600 in a week, never mind for one shift!

I guess. But then they're probably not train drivers.......who I think the comment regarded. Train drivers don't get the same as CEO's - you can see the irrelevance.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It's not just doing a single extra shift though. It is because of management incompetence around resourcing it's likely to be at least one additional shift every week. And at some point, probably quite quickly, the value of spending time with family and friends becomes more important than what will be less than £300 after tax.

And this takes into no account of how low morale is because of the company stalling on any pay increases for 5 years and counting.

I know my goodwill to help out would be in short supply with any role under when the above situation applies.

Thats DafT who are frustrating pay negotiations. I'm sure Avanti along with all the other operators would prefer to be able to sit down with teh reps and thrash things out.

 

[168lover]

Had a fun time on 1M15 tonight, got sent via Northampton due to signalling issues around Milton Keynes. Was running 20 mins late and not a single announcement at all about what was going on

 

[43066]

Easy to be blase about £600 for a shift when you're already on £60k + per year I guess..................I know families surviving on far less than £600 in a week, never mind for one shift!

This post perfectly demonstrates the fallacy of relative privation.

A minimum wage earner these days is on just north of £400 per week. Families on £600 per week should therefore consider themselves lucky, based on the logic of the above post (and are unlikely to have enormous mortgages). And so on, and so on.

 

[irish_rail]

Had a fun time on 1M15 tonight, got sent via Northampton owing to signalling issues around Milton Keynes. Was running 20 mins late and not a single announcement at all about what was going on

Be glad you don't use GWR. 20 mins late is pretty good and the norm on evening trains out of Paddington!

 

[Bald Rick]

Be glad you don't use GWR. 20 mins late is pretty good and the norm on evening trains out of Paddington!

But that is just not true.

I do wish you (and others who should also know better) wouldn‘t keep doing the railway down by writing things that are false, and not supported by evidence. This does damage to our railway.


The truth that in the first reporting period of this financial year (I am looking at the official stats as I write), the ‘Time to 15’ measure which is all trains that run measured at every single station they call at, re they are less than 15 minutes late is 98.4%. This means 1.6% of station calls on the whole network were 15 mins late or more. That’s one train in sixty.

For GWR specifically, the equivalent figures are 97.4%, ie 2.6% are 15 mins late or more. Thats one station call out of every 38.

To suggest that 20 mins late is ‘pretty good’ or ‘the norm‘ is patently false, when 37 out of 38 of all GWRs station calls are less than 15 mins late, let alone 20.

 

[mikeb42]

But that is just not true.

Hmmm. Try being a passenger on the ground experiencing this sort of thing on your regular service - admittedly into Paddington in the evening peak, but otherwise:

Ontimetrains 12 Weeks 1627 Bristol Parkway-Paddington

Cancelled 1 in 5 times (20%) in the last 3 months.
Cancelled or over 15 minutes late 17 times (29%) over the last 3 months.
On time 1 in 20 times (5%) over the last 3 months.

That data doesn't even reflect the insult being added to injury of it being a 5 coach semi-train more often than not when it does deign to show up.

Yes, I know, it's supposedly all the DfT's fault. Yes, the GW Mainline infrastructure omnishambles has calmed recently. Some regular users are still getting a shoddy experience at a premium price though. See above.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Picking instead data relating to trains I don't use but irish_rail (at a guess) drives Paddington-Plymouth:

Ontimetrains 12 Weeks 1703 Paddington-Plymouth

Looks like >50% arrived >15 mins late over 12 weeks. So they are not wrong there.

The stats for the entire franchise 24x7 in any case average away meaning by burying it in thousands of calls by local and regional trains at minor stations at 05:00.

If the average were weighted in favour of the trains, stations and times the most people actually use (i.e. largely Paddington and not at 05:00), the answer would likely be strikingly different. In any case, arithmetic mean is a misleading measure of location to use for highly skew delay stats to start with, but that's a rather technical further digression.

With apologies for contributing to the OT drift of the thread.

The same sort of thing is probably true for Avanti though!

 

[Krokodil]

Disruption isn't evenly spread. Someone travelling between London and North Wales with Avanti has a 21.2% chance of having their train cancelled, never mind delayed.

 

[irish_rail]

Hmmm. Try being a passenger on the ground experiencing this sort of thing on your regular service - admittedly into Paddington in the evening peak, but otherwise:

Ontimetrains 12 Weeks 1627 Bristol Parkway-Paddington

Cancelled 1 in 5 times (20%) in the last 3 months.
Cancelled or over 15 minutes late 17 times (29%) over the last 3 months.
On time 1 in 20 times (5%) over the last 3 months.

That data doesn't even reflect the insult being added to injury of it being a 5 coach semi-train more often than not when it does deign to show up.

Yes, I know, it's supposedly all the DfT's fault. Yes, the GW Mainline infrastructure omnishambles has calmed recently. Some regular users are still getting a shoddy experience at a premium price though. See above.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Picking instead data relating to trains I don't use but irish_rail (at a guess) drives Paddington-Plymouth:

Ontimetrains 12 Weeks 1703 Paddington-Plymouth

Looks like >50% arrived >15 mins late over 12 weeks. So they are not wrong there.

The stats for the entire franchise 24x7 in any case average away meaning by burying it in thousands of calls by local and regional trains at minor stations at 05:00.

If the average were weighted in favour of the trains, stations and times the most people actually use (i.e. largely Paddington and not at 05:00), the answer would likely be strikingly different. In any case, arithmetic mean is a misleading measure of location to use for highly skew delay stats to start with, but that's a rather technical further digression.

With apologies for contributing to the OT drift of the thread.

The same sort of thing is probably true for Avanti though!

Thank you. The trouble is I do actually give a toss and genuinely want to provide a decent service for our customers, despite what Bald Rick says. Whatever the stats say, when it comes to what I do (London to Penzance route, the idea that 98 percent of trains run to time throughout is utterly laughable. I expect the figures he quotes are largely skewed by certain none long distance services. I am very much not trying to do the railway down, its because I want us to provide an excellent service that it is so utterly frustrating. And I'd also like to know if 98 percent of GWR trains are running on time, how did I manage a 3 month spell recently where I didn't once finish my shift on time, not once. The train you quote (1703 London to PZ) is a notoroiuosly bad runner, largely due to the 1635 infront of it often leaves Paddington late. Thankfully the past month or two things have very slightly picked up.

 

[Bald Rick]

Hmmm. Try being a passenger on the ground experiencing this sort of thing on your regular service - admittedly into Paddington in the evening peak, but otherwise:

Ontimetrains 12 Weeks 1627 Bristol Parkway-Paddington

But that is one train (and you quote another). With the best will in the world, GWR‘s performance is not all about two trains. Yes there are some trains that are bad runners, and there always have been. I can count on one hand the number of times the 0820 off Sutton Coldfield was on time into New Street in the mid 90s, similarly the 0728 off St Albans being on time into Farringdon 20 years ago. But, not all GWR passengers are on the 1703 to Penzance, so it is disingenous at best to suggest that because this train is rarely punctual, that arriving 20+ minutes late is ”the norm”.

Whatever the stats say, when it comes to what I do (London to Penzance route, the idea that 98 percent of trains run to time throughout is utterly laughable.

I have not said, or implied, that 98% of trains run to time throughout.

That you are claiming that I have is either, at best, a misunderstanding of what I wrote and what the official performance statistics mean (as assured by the ORR), or (uncharitably) another example of writing about stuff that you experience on the 1703 from Paddington without taking into account the wider experience of the vast majority of train passengers.

I expect the figures he quotes are largely skewed by certain none long distance services.

No, the figures include all services on the national network.

The train you quote (1703 London to PZ) is a notoroiuosly bad runner,

It clearly is. I wonder how many people are frequent users of that train, as in more than once a week? Because I guess Reading commuters will use alternative servcies if it is such a bad runner, and there will be few commtuers going to Pewsey, Tiverton, Taunton, Exeter and beyond. Last week the train was not more than 12 late at Reading (2, 12, 7,3, 11), and at Exeter SD was 4, 21, 6, 2, and 22 late. Clearly that is not good enough, but to suggest that 20L is ’the norm’ is poppycock.

 

[philosopher]

Hmmm. Try being a passenger on the ground experiencing this sort of thing on your regular service - admittedly into Paddington in the evening peak, but otherwise:

Ontimetrains 12 Weeks 1627 Bristol Parkway-Paddington

Cancelled 1 in 5 times (20%) in the last 3 months.
Cancelled or over 15 minutes late 17 times (29%) over the last 3 months.
On time 1 in 20 times (5%) over the last 3 months.

That data doesn't even reflect the insult being added to injury of it being a 5 coach semi-train more often than not when it does deign to show up.

Yes, I know, it's supposedly all the DfT's fault. Yes, the GW Mainline infrastructure omnishambles has calmed recently. Some regular users are still getting a shoddy experience at a premium price though. See above.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Picking instead data relating to trains I don't use but irish_rail (at a guess) drives Paddington-Plymouth:

Ontimetrains 12 Weeks 1703 Paddington-Plymouth

Looks like >50% arrived >15 mins late over 12 weeks. So they are not wrong there.

The stats for the entire franchise 24x7 in any case average away meaning by burying it in thousands of calls by local and regional trains at minor stations at 05:00.

If the average were weighted in favour of the trains, stations and times the most people actually use (i.e. largely Paddington and not at 05:00), the answer would likely be strikingly different. In any case, arithmetic mean is a misleading measure of location to use for highly skew delay stats to start with, but that's a rather technical further digression.

With apologies for contributing to the OT drift of the thread.

The same sort of thing is probably true for Avanti though!

The problem with the stats is that they do not take into account how busy trains are and therefore the likelihood of a passenger rather than a train experiencing a delay. In my experience train punctuality is a lot better during the off-peak period than the peak periods, however trains are far busier during the peaks, so passengers will think train punctuality is worse than it actually is.

With Avanti’s cancellations for example, I assume Saturday is a lot busier day than Sunday. Avanti’s cancellations are a lot worse on Saturdays than Sundays. So Avanti’s passengers are more likely to experience cancellations than the raw statistics would suggest.

 

[Llandudno]

Disruption isn't evenly spread. Someone travelling between London and North Wales with Avanti has a 21.2% chance of having their train cancelled, never mind delayed.

Precisely, how can you risk travelling with Avanti from north Wales to/from London if your journey is essential or time critical.

How many passengers have Avanti (and the railway as a whole) lost in north Wales over the past few years….?

 

[dk1]

Precisely, how can you risk travelling with Avanti from north Wales to/from London if your journey is essential or time critical.

How many passengers have Avanti (and the railway as a whole) lost in north Wales over the past few years….?

Probably lost quite a few but although not what you want to hear it’s not really a priority route for Avanti. Once things settle down again passengers confidence soon returns. There is often no long lasting damage to patronage with these things.

 

[irish_rail]

But that is one train (and you quote another). With the best will in the world, GWR‘s performance is not all about two trains. Yes there are some trains that are bad runners, and there always have been. I can count on one hand the number of times the 0820 off Sutton Coldfield was on time into New Street in the mid 90s, similarly the 0728 off St Albans being on time into Farringdon 20 years ago. But, not all GWR passengers are on the 1703 to Penzance, so it is disingenous at best to suggest that because this train is rarely punctual, that arriving 20+ minutes late is ”the norm”.





I have not said, or implied, that 98% of trains run to time throughout.

That you are claiming that I have is either, at best, a misunderstanding of what I wrote and what the official performance statistics mean (as assured by the ORR), or (uncharitably) another example of writing about stuff that you experience on the 1703 from Paddington without taking into account the wider experience of the vast majority of train passengers.



No, the figures include all services on the national network.



It clearly is. I wonder how many people are frequent users of that train, as in more than once a week? Because I guess Reading commuters will use alternative servcies if it is such a bad runner, and there will be few commtuers going to Pewsey, Tiverton, Taunton, Exeter and beyond. Last week the train was not more than 12 late at Reading (2, 12, 7,3, 11), and at Exeter SD was 4, 21, 6, 2, and 22 late. Clearly that is not good enough, but to suggest that 20L is ’the norm’ is poppycock.

If we are just referring to evening trains (the OP was referring to an evening Avanti service) then I think it is very reasonable to say GWR out of Paddington suffers countless delays in the region of 20 minutes. It isn't just the 1703. You quoted last weeks figures for this train, and wow that is impressive. Maybe, someone has finally taken an interest in sorting the issues out there and that is very positive if it is the case.

 

[Welshman]

Disruption isn't evenly spread. Someone travelling between London and North Wales with Avanti has a 21.2% chance of having their train cancelled, never mind delayed.

I can remember during the last years of Virgin when there were 3 trains from Euston to Holyhead on a Sunday night - the 1708, 1808 and 1908.
Last night there were none. The altered 1801 terminated at Chester and the 1901 was terminated at Crewe.
My wife changed her plans and caught the 1801, to then be faced with a 2-hour wait in Chester from 2005 to 2202 to continue along the coast.
That is unacceptable for an older person on their own, so it was get the car out, drive the 70 or so miles to Chester and back to collect her.
No delay repay for this inconvenience - the train from Euston arrived on time into Chester. I didn't mind collecting her but am angry this situation continues.

 

[GordonT]

No delay repay for this inconvenience - the train from Euston arrived on time into Chester. I didn't mind collecting her but am angry this situation continues.

I think your anger is totally justified. We have moved a long way from a culture where train cancellations were regarded as fundamentally unacceptable with significant consequences awaiting the operator if persistantly failing to run the timetable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think your anger is totally justified. We have moved a long way from a culture where train cancellations were regarded as fundamentally unacceptable with significant consequences awaiting the operator if persistantly failing to run the timetable.

Before e-tickets it wasn't unusual for people (ahem) to claim DR as if they'd travelled in this sort of case and put the claim towards alternative transport such as a taxi. With e-ticket scans this is too likely to be picked up, unfortunately.

Very poor that Avanti didn't provide alternative transport (i.e. a bus) in this case given the very long waiting time.

 

[Leisurefirst]

Why do Avanti do this? It's almost telling people how terrible they are. Last time LNER canned one of my trains I got a text and an email which was really clear (well, actually I got four emails, but four clear emails are better than one unclear one). This really isn't rocket science.

Well, indeed.
Even better for the return journey.
Was booked on last train, that got cancelled and got no notification at all.
Just happened to check at lunchtime.
When I raised it on "Twitter" told my responsibility to check before travelling.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When I raised it on "Twitter" told my responsibility to check before travelling.

Avanti has some incredibly abrasive and unhelpful Twitterers out there, there is one in particular who is notorious for being rude to customers. It is fairly fitting with the quality of the rest of the operation* that this seems to be tolerated, though.

* Bar those lovely seats...it's such a pity that those are only available on what I consider two of the worst TOCs

 

[Leisurefirst]

Avanti has some incredibly abrasive and unhelpful Twitterers out there, there is one in particular who is notorious for being rude to customers. It is fairly fitting with the quality of the rest of the operation* that this seems to be tolerated, though.

* Bar those lovely seats...it's such a pity that those are only available on what I consider two of the worst TOCs

TBF it was via DM and they were apologetic too but I'm not impressed that having to check the last train isn't cancelled is the default!

 

[Llandudno]

Probably lost quite a few but although not what you want to hear it’s not really a priority route for Avanti. Once things settle down again passengers confidence soon returns. There is often no long lasting damage to patronage with these things.

Doubt @Welshman see post #347 would necessarily agree with you…?

Typical shambolic service from Avanti on the north Wales coast, and of course TfW only run one train per hour on Sundays all day west of Chester, which if you are lucky may consist of more than 2 cars..!

 

[londonmidland]

Not the best of days for Avanti due to overhead wire problems causing major disruption at Wigan.

 

[185143]

Avanti has some incredibly abrasive and unhelpful Twitterers out there, there is one in particular who is notorious for being rude to customers. It is fairly fitting with the quality of the rest of the operation* that this seems to be tolerated, though.

* Bar those lovely seats...it's such a pity that those are only available on what I consider two of the worst TOCs

In fairness, I was in conversation with Avanti's social media last year when I was catching the ferry back from Dublin to Holyhead then the train home. The ferry was late and my train was in real jeopardy.

The person I was dealing with couldn't have been more helpful. Even went as far as saying they'd give the TM the heads up if collecting the tickets would mean me missing the train. I did end up missing the train, and they spoke to the TM of the next service and got me passed on there no problem, even though I wasn't officially entitled to it as I had a Stena Line day trip ticket, along with an advance 1st single.

This was overnight whilst the social media desk is handled by control as opposed to the normal team. I was told by someone who works for Avanti not long after that this was why it was dealt with so well. Which is sad really, with no disrespect to the control teams who certainly can't have an easy job, I'd expect it to be the other way round if anything.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

In fairness, I was in conversation with Avanti's social media last year when I was catching the ferry back from Dublin to Holyhead then the train home. The ferry was late and my train was in real jeopardy.

The person I was dealing with couldn't have been more helpful. Even went as far as saying they'd give the TM the heads up if collecting the tickets would mean me missing the train. I did end up missing the train, and they spoke to the TM of the next service and got me passed on there no problem, even though I wasn't officially entitled to it as I had a Stena Line day trip ticket, along with an advance 1st single.

This was overnight whilst the social media desk is handled by control as opposed to the normal team. I was told by someone who works for Avanti not long after that this was why it was dealt with so well. Which is sad really, with no disrespect to the control teams who certainly can't have an easy job, I'd expect it to be the other way round if anything.

One of the biggest problems when using Social Media (and indeed other online channels) to do customer service is when companies don't empower their online teams to make decisions and handle requests in the way that customers might expect. I think the above is an example - the Control teams were able to do that for you because they are empowered - they're trained, knowledgeable, allowed to make decisions, and know who to talk to. If your social media CS team is employed for their ability to produce memes and paste a link to an online form, well, you're not going to get the same kind of response.

 

[Krokodil]

Typical shambolic service from Avanti on the north Wales coast, and of course TfW only run one train per hour on Sundays all day west of Chester, which if you are lucky may consist of more than 2 cars..!

TfW don't quite run hourly for most of the day either, the combined Sunday timetable is designed to provide an hourly service between Chester and Holyhead using both operators - so if Avanti cancel anything it punches a two-hour hole in the pattern. Worse, if Avanti don't run anything at all on a given Sunday (which has happened, I can't remember whether the cause was industrial action, engineering work or just an omnishambles) then even longer gaps are left (in the middle of the day in the Up direction, and in the evening in the Down direction). If 1D83 gets cancelled then I've had to ask for Irish Ferries to hold check-in open until the following TfW service arrives. TfW is making improvements to the Sunday timetable but from June they appear to involve earlier first trains of the day - a welcome step in itself - rather than frequency improvements.

One of the biggest problems when using Social Media (and indeed other online channels) to do customer service is when companies don't empower their online teams to make decisions and handle requests in the way that customers might expect. I think the above is an example - the Control teams were able to do that for you because they are empowered - they're trained, knowledgeable, allowed to make decisions, and know who to talk to. If your social media CS team is employed for their ability to produce memes and paste a link to an online form, well, you're not going to get the same kind of response.

It helps when social media teams have a physical presence at Control.

 

[londonmidland]

Both Avanti services I’ve been on today had no catering. Very disappointing.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not the best of days for Avanti due to overhead wire problems causing major disruption at Wigan.

Disruption until the end of the day.
Some (by no means all) Avanti services diverting via Manchester, between Preston and Crewe, with congestion there as a result.
Wigan NW had a screen saying "all services suspended", but Liverpool services had resumed (but no fast Blackpools).
The incident must have happened around 0755, and the Pendolino forming 1S37 was still there when I passed through (to Wallgate) around 1130.
Replacement buses north and south were thin on the ground, and I suspect folk were being told to go via Manchester or Liverpool for onward journeys.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

and the Pendolino forming 1S37 was still there when I passed through (to Wallgate) around 1130.

Probably left as 5H88 1215 Wigan North Western to Longsight Car. M.D.

Realtime Trains | 5H88 1215 Wigan North Western to Longsight Car. M.D. | 29/04/2024

Real-time train running information for 5H88 1215 departure from Wigan North Western to Longsight Car. M.D. on 29/04/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Was confused why RTT wasn't showing a train as "in platform" this morning when I could see by sight it was, but makes sense now.