Brexit matters

[E27007]

And part of the reason for that is that doctors pronounced that they are doctors not revenue collectors. They have a very valid point. However, other nations seem perfectly capable of collecting payment (or EHIC details) when treating patients. The NHS has almost as many support staff as it has medics so they should be able to figure out a way to ensure payment is collected for those not entitled to free treatment.

I have read NHS hospitals admission desks are frustrated when questioning the eligibility of a patient for NHS treatment due to fear of being accused of racism.

 

[Enthusiast]

I have read NHS hospitals admission desks are frustrated when questioning the eligibility of a patient for NHS treatment due to fear of being accused of racism.

Then they need to get over that fear, with the full support of their employers. Other nations manage perfectly well to check eligibility and collect revenue where appropriate.

 

[najaB]

I have read NHS hospitals admission desks are frustrated when questioning the eligibility of a patient for NHS treatment due to fear of being accused of racism.

If they ask everyone then there's no valid basis for an accusation of discrimination.

 

[sor]

If they ask everyone then there's no valid basis for an accusation of discrimination.

problem is we have no real way to do that. you can be a non-resident UK citizen, without EHIC or equivalent card from a non-EU country that we have an agreement with, and theoretically be ineligible for free healthcare. so it's not as simple as flashing the passport or having the right sounding voice.

cat among the pigeons etc, but perhaps an argument for an actual ID card that they could scan.

 

[ainsworth74]

cat among the pigeons etc, but perhaps an argument for an actual ID card that they could scan.

This is, of course, the irony of many of the more populist right wing policies that are often couched in terms of freedom and sovereignty and whatnot that in order for them to work effectively without introducing ever more complexity the answer may well involve introducing ID cards which are also, apparently, an infringement on freedom. We have created a "papers please" society but without even managing to have "papers" in order to make it possible to easily navigate that society.

Good work...

 

[TUC]

Having travelled to EU countries a couple of times recently what struck me was that at passport control when entering those countries UK citizens have to join the longer 'everyone else' non-EU queue, which is fair enough. However, on returning to the UK, both airports I have been at had joint queues for UK and EU citizens. You can argue for either approach being the appropriate one, but how can it be right to give EU citizens something that we don't also receive in return?

 

[Mag_seven]

Having travelled to EU countries a couple of times recently what struck me was that at passport control when entering those countries UK citizens have to join the linger 'everyone else' non-EU queue, which is fair enough. However, on returning to the UK, both airports I have been at had joint queues for UK and EU citizens. You can argue for either approach being the appropriate one, but how can it be right to give EU citizens something that we don't also receive in return?

You can blame Boris Johnson for that as I understand it he allowed EU citizens the right to continue to use UK e-gates despite the fact we wouldn't be allowed to do the same in reverse.

 

[ainsworth74]

Having travelled to EU countries a couple of times recently what struck me was that at passport control when entering those countries UK citizens have to join the linger 'everyone else' non-EU queue, which is fair enough. However, on returning to the UK, both airports I have been at had joint queues for UK and EU citizens. You can argue for either approach being the appropriate one, but how can it be right to give EU citizens something that we don't also receive in return?

Well that's Brexit all over isn't it? We asked to be treated as a third country (because that's the effect of what the various Tory red lines ended up meaning) so the EU treats us as a third country. But then the UK Government doesn't have the wherewithal to do the same in reverse. We won't employ enough boarder agents to man the necessary border posts to process EU visitors so they have to keep using e-gates because that's cheaper. Another example would be that we won't spend the money to do the relevant customs checks on goods coming into the country so stuff from the EU to the UK goes unchecked whilst EU states do carry out the checks on stuff that goes UK to EU. This was what Boris' oven ready deal really meant!

 

[renegademaster]

You can blame Boris Johnson for that as I understand it he allowed EU citizens the right to continue to use UK e-gates despite the fact we wouldn't be allowed to do the same in reverse.

Tbh that's an adult attitude, since I don't being petty and barring them from our egates would change their minds. We never enforced reciprocity for covid travel arrangements either .

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Having travelled to EU countries a couple of times recently what struck me was that at passport control when entering those countries UK citizens have to join the longer 'everyone else' non-EU queue, which is fair enough. However, on returning to the UK, both airports I have been at had joint queues for UK and EU citizens. You can argue for either approach being the appropriate one, but how can it be right to give EU citizens something that we don't also receive in return?

You can't win can you.... If the UK doesn't do nice things for EU citizens then people complain that the UK is being horrible and evil and contrast us with the (allegedly) nice kind wonderful EU. But if the UK does do nice things for EU citizens, then people (maybe, different people?) demand that we shouldn't be doing this unless we get something in return.

Personally I have no strong feelings either way about the immigration queues, but I think sometimes it's nice for a country to try to to be considerate to other country's citizens if it can do so without any huge cost, without necessarily demanding stuff in return.

 

[najaB]

But if the UK does do nice things for EU citizens, then people (maybe, different people?) demand that we shouldn't be doing this unless we get something in return.

Though, in reality, we're not doing it to "be nice" but rather because we don't have enough Border Agency staff as is, never mind if we added (at least) 50% to their workload.

 

[renegademaster]

Though, in reality, we're not doing it to "be nice" but rather because we don't have enough Border Agency staff as is, never mind if we added (at least) 50% to their workload.

Is it needed? Border force would not question most EU travellers anyway due to the 90 day Visa free period, all they are doing is the exact same job as the egate, tapping the person's passport on the reader and seeing if anything is flagged up. The EU doesn't let us through the egates as they won't harmonize their IT systems and have to instead rely on stamps. We don't have that issue.

 

[melon68]

Is it needed? Border force would not question most EU travellers anyway due to the 90 day Visa free period, all they are doing is the exact same job as the egate, tapping the person's passport on the reader and seeing if anything is flagged up. The EU doesn't let us through the egates as they won't harmonize their IT systems and have to instead rely on stamps. We don't have that issue.

Except when arriving at Dublin airport of course. We can use the E-Gates there along with some other non-EU nationals. A benefit of the CTA, although the downside would appear to be asylum seekers crossing the border into the south to avoid deportation to Rwanda, and causing lots of strain on social services in Ireland....

 

[najaB]

Is it needed? Border force would not question most EU travellers anyway due to the 90 day Visa free period, all they are doing is the exact same job as the egate, tapping the person's passport on the reader and seeing if anything is flagged up.

The only reason e-gates exist is because they reduce staffing requirements! Same principle as supermarket self-checkout: one staff member can monitor and manage multiple work streams in parallel or a single serial workstream.

A benefit of the CTA, although the downside would appear to be asylum seekers crossing the border into the south to avoid deportation to Rwanda, and causing lots of strain on social services in Ireland....

I doubt very much that the miniscule risk of being sent to Rwanda is the reason they're going to Ireland.

 

[renegademaster]

The only reason e-gates exist is because they reduce staffing requirements

Are you implying more efficiency at the border for the same level of security is a bad thing? Even if it was really easy to recruit border staff it wouldn't make sense to make EU passengers go through manual checks. The only reason EU makes us go through them is that they havent yet harmonized their IT systems, but soon we are going to be allowed back through them when ETIAS comes in. We will just need our biometrics recorded on our first visit

 

[JamesT]

I doubt very much that the miniscule risk of being sent to Rwanda is the reason they're going to Ireland.

It's what they're telling the media - https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/worl...to-avoid-being-deported-to-rwanda/ar-AA1nWjD5

“I am more confident about my position here than I am in the UK,” Mr Mhammed told The Telegraph. “Here, they don’t say anything. The UK says ‘go to Rwanda’. The UK is safe, but now it says to go to Rwanda and it is not safe. If the UK was not saying anything, I would not come here.”

 

[najaB]

Are you implying more efficiency at the border for the same level of security is a bad thing?

No. I'm saying that the reason that we let EU citizens use the e-gates isn't to "be nice". It's because we already have queues at border control at busy times, making more people use the staffed queues would only make matters worse.

 

[class ep-09]

Well that's Brexit all over isn't it? We asked to be treated as a third country (because that's the effect of what the various Tory red lines ended up meaning) so the EU treats us as a third country. But then the UK Government doesn't have the wherewithal to do the same in reverse. We won't employ enough boarder agents to man the necessary border posts to process EU visitors so they have to keep using e-gates because that's cheaper. Another example would be that we won't spend the money to do the relevant customs checks on goods coming into the country so stuff from the EU to the UK goes unchecked whilst EU states do carry out the checks on stuff that goes UK to EU. This was what Boris' oven ready deal really meant!

It is even more silly than that .

UK does not carry out the checks but businesses need to pay for them anyway twofold :
1. To custom agents for paperwork
2. To the government for custom officials carrying the checks - which they don’t .

In addition to that each business exporting / importing had to waste time and money to prepare for new custom arrangements .

Also if one lorry of goods comes from the EU with multiple consignments - EACH is treated and charged individually for custom / quality checks - which are not carried out.

Of course all costs are passed on to consumers.

You could not make it up .

 

[Senex]

But all this is exactly what the Brexit lot wanted and voted for — why is anyone surprised when it happens? They wanted Britain to be a third country to the hated EU so that it would be free to take the rightful place on the world stage that was waiting eagerly for it. Only it turns out the world is not still living in the Edwardian Age.

 

[sor]

But all this is exactly what the Brexit lot wanted and voted for — why is anyone surprised when it happens? They wanted Britain to be a third country to the hated EU so that it would be free to take the rightful place on the world stage that was waiting eagerly for it. Only it turns out the world is not still living in the Edwardian Age.

and the obsession with trying to rebuild the British Empire through rushed trade deals with former colonies has rather backfired somewhat, as it'll involve selling out some part of British industry. Australia/NZ is taking a swing at farming for example. When their journalists and politicians are wondering why we signed it, something's very wrong

 

[Enthusiast]

But all this is exactly what the Brexit lot wanted and voted for — why is anyone surprised when it happens?

Why do you suggest anyone is surprised? I'm certainly not and I haven't seen any expressions of surprise anywhere (mind you, I've not looked too hard). Perhaps the exact opposite (e.g. "I told you so") but not surprise.

 

[RT4038]

But all this is exactly what the Brexit lot wanted and voted for — why is anyone surprised when it happens? They wanted Britain to be a third country to the hated EU

Is no doubt accurate...

so that it would be free to take the rightful place on the world stage that was waiting eagerly for it. Only it turns out the world is not still living in the Edwardian Age.

Is hyperbole on your part. Some may well have thought this, but others will have been more pragmatic.

 

[alex397]

Is hyperbole on your part. Some may well have thought this, but others will have been more pragmatic.

From my view, the whole Leave campaign was based on hyperbole rather than intelligent thought and pragmatism.

 

[FormerBritInMe]

Mod Note: Posts #7,194 - #7,202 originally in this thread.

I suppose one sticking point would be passport control that would have to be established in any new city that is served.

I have often wondered why Britain has not joined Schengen. Other non EU countries such as Switzerland have. It would also help with the Northern Ireland /Republic of Ireland situation.

 

[higthomas]

I have often wondered why Britain has not joined Schengen. Other non EU countries such as Switzerland have. It would also help with the Northern Ireland /Republic of Ireland situation.

Err, did you miss the whole Brexit debate? Remember what some of the primary reasons it happened were...

 

[FormerBritInMe]

Err, did you miss the whole Brexit debate? Remember what some of the primary reasons it happened were...

My understanding is that Brexit happened due to several factors mostly economic e.g. a sense that the EU had not delivered on promises. The only aspect of Brexit that might have a bearing regarding Schengen was concern over immigration, with Germany opening her borders.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My understanding is that Brexit happened due to several factors mostly economic e.g. a sense that the EU had not delivered on promises. The only aspect of Brexit that might have a bearing regarding Schengen was concern over immigration, with Germany opening her borders.

Brexit was 99.99999% about immigration. Schengen for the UK is not happening.

 

[FormerBritInMe]

Brexit was 99.99999% about immigration.

Do you have a basis for that staistic?

Other studies seem to indicate there were a number of factors including immigration

Why Britain really voted to leave the European Union | University of Essex

A showcase of research by Professor Paul Whiteley from the Department of Government which analyses a decade’s worth of survey data to determine why Britain voted for Brexit.

www.essex.ac.uk

 

[Gaelan]

I have often wondered why Britain has not joined Schengen.

My personal thoughts on joining Schengen (yes, absolutely) aside, it's not actually necessary to fixing the Eurostar mess. Instead, we simply need to return to on-train passport checks, which are perfectly feasible—they were routinely done on the continent pre-Schengen, and indeed on Eurostar in the early days of its operation.

(Of course, the current government won't do this, as juxtaposed controls are a means for the UK to skirt its legal obligations regarding refugees.)

 

[Snow1964]

I suppose one sticking point would be passport control that would have to be established in any new city that is served.

I have often wondered why Britain has not joined Schengen. Other non EU countries such as Switzerland have. It would also help with the Northern Ireland /Republic of Ireland situation.

When the full API (advance passenger information) is up and running, then the checking is basically confirming the passport and boarding card/ticket match the holder.

But we all know Brexit is not complete because Northern Ireland border cannot be fully made to work without Schengen, or keeping Ireland out of Schengen.