Driver looking for career change...

[12LDA28C]

Looking at the DMs where I am, they work long hours and seem stressed much of the time. There’s a lot of admin to wade through and endless paperwork. There are some unpleasant aspects to the job for example dealing with disciplinary hearings, and some of the railway’s more confrontational characters.

They do a five day week, sometimes more when they’re expected to be on call, or need to catch someone who is working late shifts for an assessment. No overtime available and they get paid less than drivers get as where I am the uplift for DMs in London is less than the London weighting given to drivers.

If the DM job where I am paid circa. £80k basic, as it does at LNER, it might start to look attractive.

Indeed. Taking a pay cut to earn less than the drivers you're managing isn't a great proposition. The only real benefit of Driver Management is the flexible hours but there's certainly more stress involved and you tend to take the job home with you, particularly when you're on call which is not the case when you're a driver when you can just key out, switch off and not think about work again until you next book on.

 

[43066]

I'd recommend "Tom the Taxi Driver" on YouTube for anybody who considers this, including perhaps the OP. Full breakdown of the job, including every positive and negative you can think of!

Seconded - I’m an avid viewer!

 

[Economist]

Well we don't know what you currently earn , but you could come into the industry but live within your current means so if you don't like it you aren't dependent on the money. I would also be stuck , however I still love train driving. I have considered other options but that's because I seem to be falling apart as I age and I'm wondering if it's the shifts. The shifts can be brutal for some and not just because you have a 4am start etc , but because they aren't very consistent. In some industries you might start at four but you would be four all week. On the railway it could be 4am today then 6am tomorrow and 7am the next day and then back to 4am
Also the shifts aren't bang on the hour so could be 04.23 then 04.47 etc .
However it's a great career and you will almost certainly be doing the right thing.

I believe LNER Leeds have drivers' links organised by start times, early, middle, late and very late. I swapped with a colleague at the end of last year, he does earlies, I do lates, I've enjoyed the best sleep I've had in years. Personally, I'd rather it was the default with people submitting preferences for earlies/lates by seniority. The rotations between earlies and lates are the killer, I think there was a roadside fatigue test developed in Australia to measure the tiredness of people driving cars, if such technology appeared in the workplace it'd totally change shift working. The present rotational setup would probably be likened to the days when drivers had a pint with them in the cab.

You've got to really love the job and the city to do black cabs.

I'd recommend "Tom the Taxi Driver" on YouTube for anybody who considers this, including perhaps the OP. Full breakdown of the job, including every positive and negative you can think of!

I first saw his stuff when I was knocked sideways by some Covid-like illness last month, bit of a shame TfL have seemingly stopped him recording real journeys because those were great fun to watch. One point he said is that when you generate more than £90k in revenue (was £85k) you become liable for VAT at 20%, once you've subtracted the cost of cab hire, fuel, maintenance etc. from that £90k, any cab driver would be on much less than a typical train driver. Unlike the old days, most passenger payments are by card so it's not possible to hide it.

 

[Logic]

I believe LNER Leeds have drivers' links organised by start times, early, middle, late and very late. I swapped with a colleague at the end of last year, he does earlies, I do lates, I've enjoyed the best sleep I've had in years. Personally, I'd rather it was the default with people submitting preferences for earlies/lates by seniority. The rotations between earlies and lates are the killer, I think there was a roadside fatigue test developed in Australia to measure the tiredness of people driving cars, if such technology appeared in the workplace it'd totally change shift working. The present rotational setup would probably be likened to the days when drivers had a pint with them in the cab.



I first saw his stuff when I was knocked sideways by some Covid-like illness last month, bit of a shame TfL have seemingly stopped him recording real journeys because those were great fun to watch. One point he said is that when you generate more than £90k in revenue (was £85k) you become liable for VAT at 20%, once you've subtracted the cost of cab hire, fuel, maintenance etc. from that £90k, any cab driver would be on much less than a typical train driver. Unlike the old days, most passenger payments are by card so it's not possible to hide it.

As a current London Cabbie, I have had the pleasure of knowing Tom through our shared involvement in the charity Disney trip for unwell children. While the cab trade offers many rewards, it also presents significant challenges, including the high costs of operating a taxi and the regulatory restrictions that can hinder our ability to transport customers safely and efficiently to their destinations. Soon, I will be transitioning to the railway industry, where I look forward to contributing to another vital aspect of our transportation infrastructure.

 

[Efini92]

Try a different company. You’d be amazed how different the job is depending on where you work and what kind of work you do.

 

[itsapablo]

As someone who's trying to get a job on the railway this thread has been very interesting to read. I think there is always a case of the grass is greener regardless of the job you are doing. Hope OP finds something they enjoy

 

[LKS]

I think it's old adage of "the grass is always greener on the other side"!

Objectively however, rail staff are generally paid very well with good T&Cs compared to most other industries. Okay there can be extreme shifts to deal with the general public (for certain roles) and levels of responsibility, but this is not unique to the railway.

There is a reason that applications for trainee driver vacancies reach well into the hundreds.

Very true...

I am excited to be given a start date in the future. However, also nervous for giving up what albeit is a stable job and income (providing I don't muck up).

I think it's more fetching to me as the OP is at 10 years which is exactly where I am at. I'm hoping in 10 years I'll still be happy at work. As someone previously said, most of your time is spent at work and you got to be happy.

Fingers crossed for a successful career in the railway

 

[387star]

I used to drive trains for an intensive DOO outfit. The worst part was the night work which involved even more stops than the day time as well as being awake enough to deal with single line working.

That said I often swapped to get out of nights. The annoying thing was you couldn't swap to permanent dates which I'd prefer (sans nights)

After a short time I moved to a depot closer to home in the same company which had much superior work and then a year later I transferred to a pretty cushy depot where the earliest train left around 0600 and the last train arrived at midnight. Things have worsened as we've lost variety which adds an element of boredom and there's a much earlier train at around 0500. We still need have nights too which involved depot work. Personally I can't stand depot work however driving to Bedford in the wee wee hours was far worse!
The scenery is also far nicer on my line which makes a huge difference and the route is very simplistic compared to central London

The time off is superb and if you have the opportunity to shift swap to your preferred shifts the job can still be enjoyable.

However when you're tired you are more irritable and I often feel envy for those I'm driving who have had a lie in! Travelling home in uniform after an exhausting shift is no fun either. These days I drive to work.

 

[Logger79]

This is what I'm saying though, when you look at the perks of the railway its hard to walk away from.
In regards to lorry driving there is some good jobs out there but they are extremely difficult to get into, got a mate at Royal mail who loves it, doesn't do many more hours then on the railway and is on similar pay, extremely unionised, set routes.
Also only does monday- Friday with an occasional weekend, no nights unless he wants them and bumps his pay up a fair whack.
I wouldn't leave to just drive a lorry anywhere, it would have to be similar pay and some firms are paying the same if not more then train drivers, obviously the pay dispute may have something to do with that but it just shows other jobs are catching up with the railway.
Things like heavy haulage can pay very well and I would think working for someone like allelys or someone specialised like that would be a really interesting job.
Yes you'll do some long hours on them no doubt but I would think the job satisfaction would be higher, swings and roundabouts I guess.
There's definitely life beyond the railway but I think the railway has the benefit of high pay vs low hours , not going to be many jobs out there that compare on that.
The pilot thing is interesting as again its a different area with different requirements, no doubt you'll do some long hours especially on long haul and the starting pay is relatively low, add to that some of these schemes are self funded (easyjet) so can be a big output of cash.
Depends what you want i guess.
If you can stick with it and work your way up to captain quickly then the financial gain is massive but there are some big commitments and sacrifices you need to make on the way.
I don't hate driving trains but I don't come home getting any satisfaction from it now either.
Just need to be careful with what steps to take next.
Always looking for that next opportunity be it on the railway or elsewhere.

I was working for Royal mail on the artics before becoming a driver, and the wage was nowhere near! As for the no weekends nights, your friend must be a senior driver there, number one gets first choice of shifts so on so forth. Those at the bottom have what's left and anything after goes to agency drivers.
That said, it's definitely one of the better jobs out there with regards to HGV driving. Would I go back? Absolutely not!

 

[anglian96]

I was working for Royal mail on the artics before becoming a driver, and the wage was nowhere near! As for the no weekends nights, your friend must be a senior driver there, number one gets first choice of shifts so on so forth. Those at the bottom have what's left and anything after goes to agency drivers.
That said, it's definitely one of the better jobs out there with regards to HGV driving. Would I go back? Absolutely not!

I second this. The wage is good but doesnt compare and the hours are much more aswell.

 

[baz962]

I used to drive trains for an intensive DOO outfit. The worst part was the night work which involved even more stops than the day time as well as being awake enough to deal with single line working.

That said I often swapped to get out of nights. The annoying thing was you couldn't swap to permanent dates which I'd prefer (sans nights)

After a short time I moved to a depot closer to home in the same company which had much superior work and then a year later I transferred to a pretty cushy depot where the earliest train left around 0600 and the last train arrived at midnight. Things have worsened as we've lost variety which adds an element of boredom and there's a much earlier train at around 0500. We still need have nights too which involved depot work. Personally I can't stand depot work however driving to Bedford in the wee wee hours was far worse!
The scenery is also far nicer on my line which makes a huge difference and the route is very simplistic compared to central London

The time off is superb and if you have the opportunity to shift swap to your preferred shifts the job can still be enjoyable.

However when you're tired you are more irritable and I often feel envy for those I'm driving who have had a lie in! Travelling home in uniform after an exhausting shift is no fun either. These days I drive to work.

Why is travelling in uniform no fun ?

 

[12LDA28C]

Why is travelling in uniform no fun ?

Presumably because you get members of the public asking you various questions about the trains / timetable / strikes / state of the nation when all you want to do is shut your eyes and relax after a long shift.

 

[baz962]

Presumably because you get members of the public asking you various questions about the trains / timetable / strikes / state of the nation when all you want to do is shut your eyes and relax after a long shift.

I did wonder that , however it could just be bad luck. I always travel in uniform on my toc and one other , but strangely I only ever get asked questions when actually working and changing ends. Never get it going or coming home from work and neither do my colleagues that live and travel the same way.

 

[Gemz91]

Indeed. Taking a pay cut to earn less than the drivers you're managing isn't a great proposition. The only real benefit of Driver Management is the flexible hours but there's certainly more stress involved and you tend to take the job home with you, particularly when you're on call which is not the case when you're a driver when you can just key out, switch off and not think about work again until you next book on.

Driver Managers at my place are on about £10,000 more then Drivers. Do you mean if you worked 5 days as a Driver you’d be on more then a DM? Or is a DM’s wage less then the basic Drivers wage?

 

[WAB]

I did wonder that , however it could just be bad luck. I always travel in uniform on my toc and one other , but strangely I only ever get asked questions when actually working and changing ends. Never get it going or coming home from work and neither do my colleagues that live and travel the same way.

I'm often asked questions when I'm in civvies, even when there are uniformed staff right next to me I must just have an aura.

 

[387star]

I did wonder that , however it could just be bad luck. I always travel in uniform on my toc and one other , but strangely I only ever get asked questions when actually working and changing ends. Never get it going or coming home from work and neither do my colleagues that live and travel the same way.

Yeah it's more psychological
I always take my uniform off shopping etc. You still feel like you're at work and you have to vacate your seat if it's busy as well unless there's a cab to sit in. If there's delays everyone glares at you!

 

[theironroad]

A lot of what current drivers have written here resonates a lot with me as a driver.

Without doubt, career progression for drivers is limited, yes driver manager, but as has been discussed not a great move for many and probably a pay cut (especially if a driver does rest days) and more days at work. A very small number may be extremely ambitious and decided to take a drop down the pay ladder for a number of years in the hope they can progress further up the ladder later in their career in a alternative part of rail. Very few driver managers progress up the chain (some to depot manager) and laterally into ops standards etc. Some of this may change as more drivers enter the grade with degrees, which historically drivers ( and hence driver managers) generally don't have.

Pretty much anything else will be a pay cut if staying on the railway and also loss of travel facilities (in TOCs) and probably defined benefit pension if leaving the industry.

It's a shame in many ways that passenger/freight/engineering was all split at privatisation, as although driving a train is the common factor, doing EMU passenger one day and loco freight etc another would lead to a big variety in work, but not going to happen.

Without doubt, variable shift work and the extreme anti-social early starts to late finishes are the worst bit of the job. Very few industries have variable shift working, but at least in a traditional 2 or 3 shift system there is a element of consistency day to day. I am sure that my health has suffered and wonder how much it shortens life expectancy. Early shift finishes on paper look great, but often by the time you're actually finished you're so knackered you just want a kip for a bit and then that ruins the night sleep.

I really don't want this to turn into a union thread (there's plenty of them), but currently for drivers, rosters are negotiated between management and staff reps. Part of drivers terms and conditions negotiated at each company is limits and a element of consistency when drawing up rosters and the diagrams that populate them. Additional t&c allow for limits on movement when 'spare' etc in the roster. One of the most contentious points in the current dispute is the RDG's wish on behalf of TOCs and with government backing to abolish any union reps involvement in rosters and diagrams and the limits. The only potential limit would be the 'Hidden' guidelines which have been adhered to on the whole that there should be a minimum 12 hours rest before a driving turn and no more than 13 days at work before a rest day. I believe that even these 'Hidden' guidelines are not enshrined in legislation but were adopted after the Clapham disaster, but even they could be up for grabs. This is why drivers are defending their T & Cs among other things.

I have often thought about leaving the industry, but am probably institutionalised by now and I don't hate the job by any means, but boring it generally is. I've always considered it as golden handcuffs, as pay, pension & travel mean it is still a decent way to earn a crust and is some ways I'm glad that I'm nearer the end of my railway career rather the beginning.

To non - drivers , I'd never tell anyone not to go for a driver job, just be realistic in your expectations and not believe all the media and socials hype.

 

[12LDA28C]

Driver Managers at my place are on about £10,000 more then Drivers. Do you mean if you worked 5 days as a Driver you’d be on more then a DM? Or is a DM’s wage less then the basic Drivers wage?

DMs may well be on 10k more basic than the drivers, but there is no opportunity for any overtime which is virtually unlimited as a driver, assuming you have a RDW agreement. DMs also generally have a 37-40 hour working week as opposed to a driver's 35 hour week, at most TOCs.

 

[357]

Driver Managers at my place are on about £10,000 more then Drivers. Do you mean if you worked 5 days as a Driver you’d be on more then a DM? Or is a DM’s wage less then the basic Drivers wage?

At my previous TOC managers were on less than a driver as they had TSSA and we had ASLEF, over the years the gap was getting bigger and bigger.

 

[Gemz91]

DMs may well be on 10k more basic than the drivers, but there is no opportunity for any overtime which is virtually unlimited as a driver, assuming you have a RDW agreement. DMs also generally have a 37-40 hour working week as opposed to a driver's 35 hour week, at most TOCs.

So for a driver who does no rest day work it would be a pay increase.

It’s a move I’m considering at the moment. Where I know it’s not for everyone, for me at the moment I feel the benefit of working more Monday to Friday 9-5 (with the exception of on call and assessments in darkness hours) out weighs having rest days during the week. Also the struggle of getting annual leave in school holidays, weekends or at Christmas time as a Train Driver is another part of the job that I could do without.

But as I’ve said on here before, I’ve done no rest days in the past twelve months and the year before that I did 3. I understand if people like their money it might not be for them but that’s not everyone.

At my previous TOC managers were on less than a driver as they had TSSA and we had ASLEF, over the years the gap was getting bigger and bigger.

Didn’t realise that was the case at some TOCs. Seems madness and I can’t understand who’d put in for a DMs job in that case.

 

[357]

Didn’t realise that was the case at some TOCs. Seems madness and I can’t understand who’d put in for a DMs job in that case.

Absolutely. My current TOC has their head screwed on much more than my previous, and instructor/ops managers all have their salary linked to the drivers with a % enhancement. This way there is always a promotion path, the only question being if you want to take that path, not if you can afford the pay cut.

 

[43066]

I first saw his stuff when I was knocked sideways by some Covid-like illness last month, bit of a shame TfL have seemingly stopped him recording real journeys because those were great fun to watch. One point he said is that when you generate more than £90k in revenue (was £85k) you become liable for VAT at 20%, once you've subtracted the cost of cab hire, fuel, maintenance etc. from that £90k, any cab driver would be on much less than a typical train driver. Unlike the old days, most passenger payments are by card so it's not possible to hide it.

Pleased to hear you’ve recovered from the illness.

Yes indeed, he released one rather irritating clickbatey video where he waffled his way around the subject of earnings - why not give a ballpark?!. He said he’s paying around £16k per annum for his cab, albeit that’s tax deductible, but of course that amount still has to be earned before beginning to take anything home.

From what the guys I work with have said these days you could get to £50k+ profit, but it would be six days per week, and/or working unsocial hours. If you spent a day in the cab or you’d be unlikely to get anything approaching what a train driver can earn from a day’s overtime, and £80k+ isn’t going to be possible.

I’ve always found the idea of the job fascinating, albeit not something I’ve ever considered personally.

Try a different company. You’d be amazed how different the job is depending on where you work and what kind of work you do.

This is good advice.

So for a driver who does no rest day work it would be a pay increase.

Depends where. Not at my depot. That’s unusual because, as noted above, DMs get an additional payment that is less than the drivers’ London weighting. At other depots at the same TOC, where drivers don’t receive the London weighting, it would be a small increase over the basic driver wage. Only equivalent to around six rest days, though, so you wouldn’t need to do much overtime at all to out earn a DM.

 

[12LDA28C]

So for a driver who does no rest day work it would be a pay increase.

Again, that depends how you view the salary structure / rostered hours. If a DM is required to work 40 hours a week (plus any additional hours unpaid as the role requires) they might actually be on a lower hourly rate than a driver on an average 35-hour week. The only real benefit is the more sociable hours and weekends off (but not long weekends like drivers get). PM me if you want to discuss further.

 

[Horizon22]

A lot of what current drivers have written here resonates a lot with me as a driver.

Without doubt, career progression for drivers is limited, yes driver manager, but as has been discussed not a great move for many and probably a pay cut (especially if a driver does rest days) and more days at work. A very small number may be extremely ambitious and decided to take a drop down the pay ladder for a number of years in the hope they can progress further up the ladder later in their career in a alternative part of rail. Very few driver managers progress up the chain (some to depot manager) and laterally into ops standards etc. Some of this may change as more drivers enter the grade with degrees, which historically drivers ( and hence driver managers) generally don't have.

Without doubt, variable shift work and the extreme anti-social early starts to late finishes are the worst bit of the job. Very few industries have variable shift working, but at least in a traditional 2 or 3 shift system there is a element of consistency day to day. I am sure that my health has suffered and wonder how much it shortens life expectancy. Early shift finishes on paper look great, but often by the time you're actually finished you're so knackered you just want a kip for a bit and then that ruins the night sleep.

I'm aware some drivers have gone into control roles, whether this is service controller, or resourcing/crew specialist. Some found this suited their personality and skillset better, whilst others liked the fixed start/finish of early/late/night/12h shifts so you know what you're doing day to day.

There is no doubt that night shifts (and rotating shifts which may or may not include nights are worse) do worsen your life expectancy, although this can be managed somewhat by lifestyle.

One of the worst elements of driver shifts is for those depots/TOCs don't have Sunday in the working week (or even some that do!) is a late Saturday shift (finishing say 0000-0200 Sunday) then Sunday is a "Rest Day" before doing an early Monday shift (starting 0400-0600 Monday). To me that sounds absoutely brutal.

As I said earlier in the thread, options do exist if the intention is to move away from train driving completely but it would be naive of me to suggest they are not limited.

 

[Economist]

As a current London Cabbie, I have had the pleasure of knowing Tom through our shared involvement in the charity Disney trip for unwell children. While the cab trade offers many rewards, it also presents significant challenges, including the high costs of operating a taxi and the regulatory restrictions that can hinder our ability to transport customers safely and efficiently to their destinations. Soon, I will be transitioning to the railway industry, where I look forward to contributing to another vital aspect of our transportation infrastructure.

Best of luck in the move to the railway, I worked in the office world before moving to train driving seven years ago, so far it's been the best career move I've made.

Pleased to hear you’ve recovered from the illness.

Thanks mate, much appreciated.

 

[WAB]

As I said earlier in the thread, options do exist if the intention is to move away from train driving completely but it would be naive of me to suggest they are not limited.

Yes, I know a couple of NR directors who came from the driving grades, but you do need to have the educational background and the right positions for a driver's skillset to open up at the right time.