Wolvercoter
Member
I recall Arriva 300 from Oxford to Wycombe / Uxbridge. It was before Wycombe Bus took over with the 275 about 1999. Only used it a couple of times from Oxford to Wycombe.
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Carousel Buses (Go-Ahead group)
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The traditional route between Oxford and High Wycombe was City of Oxford service 75. My 1966 timetable book shows that it ran roughly every 2 hours. It was run from a garage in Stokenchurch that was shared with Thames Valley. Of course in those pre-motorway days it followed the same route as the South Midland Oxford-London service which was also 2 hourly but needed to be pre-booked. When City of Oxford took over South Midland the two routes were merged into pay-on-board service 290 running every two hours. Much has changed since then, of course.
The 275 does seem to have long been among the weakest, if not the weakest inter-urban service leaving both Oxford and High Wycombe, so it doesn't come as too much of a surprise. Presumably there is more to it than just Carousel being based in High Wycombe for those positioning journeys, and they may actually be the ones carrying most passengers? I think we have to remember that what looks like a good line on the map may actually be carrying fresh air and the driver over parts of the day, and with modern ticket machines, that's easy to tell.
How many inter-urban services now only run Monday to Friday? Whilst we're used to seeing that on village-town services, it seems rather more unusual on town-town services such as this, which is perhaps another giveaway.
Bledlow Ridge, population ca. 900, is in Buckinghamshire, and as the operator states to have worked with Oxfordshire on a new timetable, and the registration states it is part subsidised by Oxfordshire, that seems to suggest Bledlow Ridge is a Buckinghamshire problem. In any case, it won't be cut off completely, as it still has the Princes Risborough Community Bus (and presumably, connections in Princes Ris. to High Wycombe if wanted).
I had it at the back of my mind that there had previously been a truncation of service, and a bit of delving seems to suggest in 2003, it operated with a peak journey Mon-Sat, but off-peak journeys only ran Mon/Wed/Fri, and even then Mondays and Wednesdays it terminated at Stokenchurch (when the whole service ran that way; rerouted via Bledlow Ridge in 2012). I think it was interworked with the 111/122/124 shoppers services at the time, to Watlington, etc.?
(Note: Direct download of Word doc, but as source: https://www.oxford-chiltern-bus-page.co.uk/275 tt 070703.doc).
As others have suggested, I suspect the suggestion of travelling using the Airline service is just to avoid mentioning the competition (although the 40 also looks to be at least part supported by Oxfordshire CC, so not really competition per se), not that they are actually expecting anyone to use it. After all, if there were enough passengers to make it viable, they wouldn't be withdrawing it!
Oddly, one wonders why it doesn't get introduced on Saturdays with some whacking great marketing advertising it as a day out from High Wycombe to the City of Dreaming Spires... I suspect the interest really is very low!
How many inter-urban services now only run Monday to Friday? Whilst we're used to seeing that on village-town services, it seems rather more unusual on town-town services such as this, which is perhaps another giveaway.
Bledlow Ridge, population ca. 900, is in Buckinghamshire, and as the operator states to have worked with Oxfordshire on a new timetable, and the registration states it is part subsidised by Oxfordshire, that seems to suggest Bledlow Ridge is a Buckinghamshire problem. In any case, it won't be cut off completely, as it still has the Princes Risborough Community Bus (and presumably, connections in Princes Ris. to High Wycombe if wanted).
I had it at the back of my mind that there had previously been a truncation of service, and a bit of delving seems to suggest in 2003, it operated with a peak journey Mon-Sat, but off-peak journeys only ran Mon/Wed/Fri, and even then Mondays and Wednesdays it terminated at Stokenchurch (when the whole service ran that way; rerouted via Bledlow Ridge in 2012). I think it was interworked with the 111/122/124 shoppers services at the time, to Watlington, etc.?
(Note: Direct download of Word doc, but as source: https://www.oxford-chiltern-bus-page.co.uk/275 tt 070703.doc).
As others have suggested, I suspect the suggestion of travelling using the Airline service is just to avoid mentioning the competition (although the 40 also looks to be at least part supported by Oxfordshire CC, so not really competition per se), not that they are actually expecting anyone to use it. After all, if there were enough passengers to make it viable, they wouldn't be withdrawing it!
Oddly, one wonders why it doesn't get introduced on Saturdays with some whacking great marketing advertising it as a day out from High Wycombe to the City of Dreaming Spires... I suspect the interest really is very low!
Mgameing123
Member
Where did it go via?
Honestly I think it should run 8 times a day between High Wycombe and Oxford and they should just consider adding timetable padding on the route if its that unstable with journey times.
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How many days a week?
The contract was with Red Rose until quite recently. Bucks CC publicity for buses involves clicking a link labelled "Parking Roads and Transport" on the council website.
Mgameing123
Member
Oh i'm so sorry mate I mean 8 times a day. Then 4 times a day on Saturday then 2 times a day on Sunday.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
It is quite prevalent in Somerset and Dorset on their tenders. Somerset is by default in some cases as services were withdrawn and replacements were only available/affordable on a Mon - Fri basis such as the 184 Frome to Midsomer Norton, or 162 Frome to Shepton Mallet. That said, they are pretty small towns and not huge numbers of end to end traffic.
Dorset is a different kettle of fish. CR2 runs half hourly between Shaftesbury and Gillingham (M-F) but no Saturday service. CR5 Yeovil to Dorchester is two hourly but no Saturday service. In fact, all the services that link Blandford to other towns, except the commercial route to Poole (i.e. to Shaftesbury, Salisbury, Dorchester, Yeovil) are all tendered only on a Mon to Fri. Clearly, they have to provide home to school services, and so they provide tendered services on a marginal cost basis off these.
It might be but I don't think so. Even now, the first and last journeys follow a direct route from Wycombe via Stokenchurch up to Aston Rowant rather than diverting round Chinnor. They do look like positioning journeys if I'm honest.
Following the same route as the first and last 275s - Oxford to Wycombe via Wheatley, Tetsworth, Stokenchurch and West Wycombe.
The question has to be why such an uplift? Do numbers really justify that? It would require another vehicle, and who pays?
Tend to agree that the best option would be to suspend hostilities and have facility using the 40 connecting with the 275 in Chinnor (Village Hall) but you'd need to tweak the times a bit (May 2024 275 times in brackets). It could be something like this... assuming that it's a single driver shift with breaks and that there are no other bits of work sprinkled in or other dependencies.
| Oxford | 0920 (0930) | 1145 (1150) | 1435 (1450) |
| Chinnor | 1009 (1019) | 1234 (1239) | 1524 (1539) |
| Chinnor | 1016 | 1316 | 1526 |
| Wycombe | 1054 | 1354 | 1604 |
| Wycombe | 1000 | 1200 | 1500 |
| Chinnor | 1035 | 1235 | 1535 |
| Chinnor | 1045 (1045) | 1245 (1255) | 1545 (1625) |
| Oxford | 1138 (1138) | 1338 (1348) | 1638 (1718) |
Mgameing123
Member
Well you can't increase bus usage without providing the service.
Also they clearly are positioning journeys. In reality this is a cut to the service because the Chinnor the High Wycombe section doesn't get enough customers.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Please talk me through your logic on the 275. How much do you think your plan would increase patronage by?
Mgameing123
Member
Providing 8 services a day spread throughout the day. with the first bus early in the morning and the last bus at around 21.00. Also it would work perfectly with Oxford Bus Group since they could run a bus from Oxford bus depot and from High Wycombe bus depot.
The current timetable isn't good enough for commuters and there is passenger potential if the UK actually cared about buses that don't turn a profit.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
So again, I ask.... what is the passenger potential? How much additional patronage will this create?
Commuter flows are already catered for into Oxford, and the 40 provides the main service from Chinnor provides them into Wycombe so in what way is your plan going to improve that?
greenline712
Member
It's a great idea .... but .....
There is a fast train between Wycombe and Oxford about every half-hour .... so, even given the current fares differential (which is unlikely to last for ever), that's through passengers sorted.
You need bums on seats, and plenty of them, to make a bus route work. Where might these bums come from?? There are precious few chimneys on the freehold of Route 275, so those people will need to travel a lot!!!
Sorry, but the route has had its day, and is now soaking up finance that could be better used elsewhere.
Close it down ....
IMO one way to fix most of these problems at once would be to join the 40 up with whatever short Oxford-Thame services are left after the current period of instability on Oxford-Aylesbury. That could allow Oxford-Wycombe through every hour or so, keeps Oxford-Chinnor connections, and likely has lower resource costs than running the 275 separately. It's only very slightly further than via Tetsworth, and although losing those village connections is a shame, some service could be kept on the Watlington-centred groups of Oxfordshire contracts. Biggest issue would seem to be that Oxford-Thame is commercial whilst the 40 is a contract, but with the way Arriva are going both routes will be Red Group before too long, so it feels like it should be achievable.
In general though I agree with other commenters here - running a separate 275 is a largely useless money sink, and does probably need to go.
Busaholic
Veteran Member
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They could always market it as 'the route the Beatles would have used if they'd been in the area.'
What happened to the usage of the 40? Last time I used it with any regularlarity it has just increased to a half-hourly commercial service (Hourly beyond Stokenchurch) and the Sunday service had increased to hourly from 3 or 4 trips. Was it a post-Covid drop in passengers? I was surprised last year to realise they weren't running it any more.
The current 275 route serves the villages along the A40 west of the Chiltern escarpment. Any diversion would leave this corridor without a bus service. It's the senic trip to Chinnor that contributes to the 275's failure as an inter-urban route.
The map encourages enthusiasts, myself included, to reach for crayon box but the underlying issue is that very few people look across the escarpment for shopping or entertainment.
Mgameing123
Member
The route went to Red Rose and they cut the frequency.
To be honest the route shouldn't be focused to be an interurban. They should rather focus on the villages it serves so they both have a connections towards Wycombe & Oxford and maybe even serve more of the Oxford suburbs as an effort to get more patreonship.
It most likely will end up as an empty bus like my local bus route but villages like Bedlow Ridge, Tetsworth & Milton Common would significantly benefit from 8 buses a day.
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WibbleWobble
Member
Blandford - Dorchester - Weymouth (CR8) tendered service runs Monday to Saturday.
In the case of the CR2*, the service did run on a Saturday (when it was the X2) but this had to be provided commercially. Same happened with what is now the CR3 and CR5.
* - I think the CR2 only runs half hourly due to developer funding, although it has chopped and changed quite a bit to serve different parts of Shaftesbury or Gillingham.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
You could say that about anywhere. The reality is that places like that are very well heeled, and just don't have very many passengers. Spending an extra £150k a year on another bus when a) money is limited and b) there are many more places that would benefit from such investment
It does focus on the villages at the moment but places like Aston Rowant and Kingston Blount are really affluent. Do you know the area?
I think @Deerfold was suggesting that it was commercially operated, and asking why did it then cease and pass to Red Rose under tender?
Whoops - my mistake
Passed to Red Rose in July 2022, but I thought it had been tendered for a while before that?
Mgameing123
Member
I'm not saying the route was on tender. But after Carousel withdrew the service Red Rose tookover.You could say that about anywhere. The reality is that places like that are very well heeled, and just don't have very many passengers. Spending an extra £150k a year on another bus when a) money is limited and b) there are many more places that would benefit from such investment
It does focus on the villages at the moment but places like Aston Rowant and Kingston Blount are really affluent. Do you know the area?
I think @Deerfold was suggesting that it was commercially operated, and asking why did it then cease and pass to Red Rose under tender?
Whoops - my mistake
Well they surely have children who need to go to school or go shopping in town.You could say that about anywhere. The reality is that places like that are very well heeled, and just don't have very many passengers. Spending an extra £150k a year on another bus when a) money is limited and b) there are many more places that would benefit from such investment
It does focus on the villages at the moment but places like Aston Rowant and Kingston Blount are really affluent. Do you know the area?
I think @Deerfold was suggesting that it was commercially operated, and asking why did it then cease and pass to Red Rose under tender?
Whoops - my mistake
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
The route is currently tendered. However, was it that Carousel withdrew the route, or was it already tendered and passed to Red Rose?
How do you think they do it now? As I say, these are very affluent places. When a two bedroom terraced house in Kingston Blount sells for over £400k, you're probably not short of money and have a car.
My understanding was that there was an element of subsidy in Oxfordshire and for schoolday diversions/extensions in Buckinghamshire, and possibly for the Sunday improvements from 3/4 services to hourly but that the half hourly service between Stokenchurch and High Wycombe on weekdays was commercial (it seems rather generous, otherwise).
None of the sample timetables I found online suggested a half-hourly service, but clearly you used it as such: Would you mind saying what sort of time that was?
As council funding is sometimes noted on timetables, I wondered if it was worth seeing what the web archive came up with.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
I've had a look... The Oxford and Chiltern Bus Page has mention of Carousel running the 40 from Wycombe to Thame in June 2015, having taken over from Arriva. Arriva continued to run short workings from Wycombe to Stokenchurch.
Can't find anything more recent though. There was another comment about s106 funding in Thame but again, I can't find anything to corroborate that
This would be somewhere between 2016 and 2018. I'd used it earlier when it was just hourly (but they also ran several services a day via Cadmore End).
Carousel have announced that they are ready to take over routes from Arriva in the Wycombe area if/ when the depot there closes
www.carouselbuses.co.uk
I can reassure them that Carousel is ready to step in, to ensure bus users can still get to where they need to go. If Arriva does proceed with its plans to close the High Wycombe depot, we plan to immediately provide a service on current Arriva routes 2, 3, 5/5a, 6/6a, 7/7a, 10, 11, 12, 13, 800, 850 and X80, from the date of the closure.
Carousel Buses – response to closure of Arriva High Wycombe and Aylesbury
We will be stepping in to run additional services across High Wycombe.
www.carouselbuses.co.uk
I can reassure them that Carousel is ready to step in, to ensure bus users can still get to where they need to go. If Arriva does proceed with its plans to close the High Wycombe depot, we plan to immediately provide a service on current Arriva routes 2, 3, 5/5a, 6/6a, 7/7a, 10, 11, 12, 13, 800, 850 and X80, from the date of the closure.
This is being discussed in a separate thread:Carousel have announced that they are ready to take over routes from Arriva in the Wycombe area if/ when the depot there closes
Carousel Buses – response to closure of Arriva High Wycombe and Aylesbury
We will be stepping in to run additional services across High Wycombe.
I can reassure them that Carousel is ready to step in, to ensure bus users can still get to where they need to go. If Arriva does proceed with its plans to close the High Wycombe depot, we plan to immediately provide a service on current Arriva routes 2, 3, 5/5a, 6/6a, 7/7a, 10, 11, 12, 13, 800, 850 and X80, from the date of the closure.
Arriva to close Aylesbury and High Wycombe depots
https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/latest-news/proposed-closure-of-aylesbury-and-high-wycombe-depots In not altogether surprising news, Arriva is proposing to close Aylesbury and Wycombe depots. Well, can't say I'm all that surprised. Thought Aylesbury would go before Wycombe, but I guess it makes...
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