Conwy Valley Line

[aoa123]

Hi, apologies if this is in the wrong section.

Planning a trip later this month along the Conwy Valley Line but noticed on RTT most (all?) services on this cancelled from around 7th Dec and ongoing. TFW shows a rail replacement bus operating on this line but hard to find any other info on this.. does anyone on the ground know if this is the case or why this is / what's going on? Many thanks.

 

[Somewhere]

Any date in particular? Can't find any buses on TfW or NRES.
Have you only looked at RTT?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Shortage of available train(s) to run the service?

 

[krus_aragon]

TfW are having a messy time with wheelflats on their 197 fleet at the moment. Other threads suggest their wheel lathes have a long queue of units waiting their turn.

The Conwy Valley is a common line to bustitute to save a unit when stock is short. I was in Betws y Coed on the 2nd, and it was all buses then, too.

 

[Russel]

Can't be the only person to assume it had been washed away again when I saw this thread appear...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can't be the only person to assume it had been washed away again when I saw this thread appear...

Touch wood this hasn't happened since they did the long-overdue enhancement work of dumping all those boulders next to it. Just a shame so much money was wasted rebuilding it every other year until that was done.

 

[MadMarsupial]

TfW website is now giving this as the reason for bus replacement

12/12/23 16:12 Llandudno to Blaenau Ffestiniog due 17:26 will be cancelled.
This is due to more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time.

which tallies with #4 above

 

[nwales58]

Rail replacement buses are running to the train times, roughly. I saw them on Monday.

TfW are appalling at making correct information visible on NRES. Most days it appears all services are cancelled. But last Sunday it showed correctly as RRB.

 

[6Gman]

TfW are having a messy time with wheelflats on their 197 fleet at the moment. Other threads suggest their wheel lathes have a long queue of units waiting their turn.

The Conwy Valley is a common line to bustitute to save a unit when stock is short. I was in Betws y Coed on the 2nd, and it was all buses then, too.

The fact that the buses can actually do the journey in less time than the train* makes that an easier option of course.


* Or something very close to it.

 

[krus_aragon]

Touch wood this hasn't happened since they did the long-overdue enhancement work of dumping all those boulders next to it. Just a shame so much money was wasted rebuilding it every other year until that was done.

They still haven't done any enhancement work (to the best of my knowledge). They just rebuild the washed-out portions each time.

Of course, by now, that means a lot of the line has been rebuilt to a modern standard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They still haven't done any enhancement work (to the best of my knowledge).

They have. A big load of protective boulders have been placed alongside the bits that often wash out, a bit like a sea wall. And since that it hasn't washed out again.

 

[Wyrleybart]

The fact that the buses can actually do the journey in less time than the train* makes that an easier option of course.


* Or something very close to it.

Probably time to close it down and run buses instead. It would be so much cheaper with a single bus driver replacing the driver and conductor and even a brand new 70 seater Streetdeck would be hugely cheaper than a CAF 197.

Mad really that three years ago TfW were planning to use 230s on it !!

 

[AlastairFraser]

Probably time to close it down and run buses instead. It would be so much cheaper with a single bus driver replacing the driver and conductor and even a brand new 70 seater Streetdeck would be hugely cheaper than a CAF 197.

Mad really that three years ago TfW were planning to use 230s on it !!

Let's say the bus companies have a rather chequered reputation in the area, and the A470 from Blaenau Ffestiniog is sometimes closed in winter while the railway stays open.
So rail is the way forward, just rolling stock needs to settle in.

 

[Russel]

Probably time to close it down and run buses instead. It would be so much cheaper with a single bus driver replacing the driver and conductor and even a brand new 70 seater Streetdeck would be hugely cheaper than a CAF 197.

Mad really that three years ago TfW were planning to use 230s on it !!

As much as I agree with you in principle, financially it makes a lot of sense, but, bus operators just cannot be trusted, say for example the line is closed and replaced by Arriva running an hourly service along the Conwy Valley, how long is it until it's reduced to two hourly, then a couple of journeys a day until finally the route is scrapped due to low demand, then we're left with no form of public transport in the area...

 

[175001]

Probably time to close it down and run buses instead. It would be so much cheaper with a single bus driver replacing the driver and conductor and even a brand new 70 seater Streetdeck would be hugely cheaper than a CAF 197.

Mad really that three years ago TfW were planning to use 230s on it !!

Ahh the old "close it down" rears it's head again I see.

 

[parkender102]

Rail replacement buses are running to the train times, roughly. I saw them on Monday.

TfW are appalling at making correct information visible on NRES. Most days it appears all services are cancelled. But last Sunday it showed correctly as RRB.

Same happening on the Borderlands Line (Bidston - Wrexham). Last Saturday I was heading into Liverpool from Hawarden for Christmas Drinks with old friends and I checked National Rail Website in the morning saying that most of that days trains had been replaced by a Bus Service (siting too many trains requiring maintenance etc). However this changed later in the day to nearly all services running and I did manage to do a return journey to Liverpool. However no Guard / Train Manger on the outward service (also 15 minutes late arriving) so had to quickly buy a ticket at Bidston just before the connecting service to Liverpool. On the way home a 25 minute wait at the lovely Bidston Station for the late arriving train from Wrexham to return to Hawarden. What made up for it though was both journeys on the Borderlands Line were on the recently introduced ex Tube Trains which were superb - clean. bright, comfortable and working toilets!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Same happening on the Borderlands Line (Bidston - Wrexham). Last Saturday I was heading into Liverpool from Hawarden for Christmas Drinks with old friends and I checked National Rail Website in the morning saying that most of that days trains had been replaced by a Bus Service (siting too many trains requiring maintenance etc). However this changed later in the day to nearly all services running and I did manage to do a return journey to Liverpool. However no Guard / Train Manger on the outward service (also 15 minutes late arriving) so had to quickly buy a ticket at Bidston just before the connecting service to Liverpool. On the way home a 25 minute wait at the lovely Bidston Station for the late arriving train from Wrexham to return to Hawarden. What made up for it though was both journeys on the Borderlands Line were on the recently introduced ex Tube Trains which were superb - clean. bright, comfortable and working toilets!

The Borderlands is a bit different, as aside from three stations on the southern bit it is surrounded by built up areas with significant potential demand for travel to Liverpool in particular. With 2tph of battery 777s it would do quite well for itself, I suspect no worse than any other part of Merseyrail. It's considerably less rural than even Ormskirk-Preston or Kirkby-Wigan for the most part, let alone the Conwy Valley which really is a "Beeching refugee" as a proper classic branch line. Probably comparable to Southport-Wigan which also has a few very rural halts but stations in the most part surrounded by housing.

I suspect the persistent bad service has driven a lot of people away, though.

 

[Krokodil]

They still haven't done any enhancement work (to the best of my knowledge). They just rebuild the washed-out portions each time.

Of course, by now, that means a lot of the line has been rebuilt to a modern standard.

They have done enhancement work, they didn't just replace like-for-like. There's a considerable amount of rock armour there now.

Probably time to close it down and run buses instead. It would be so much cheaper with a single bus driver replacing the driver and conductor and even a brand new 70 seater Streetdeck would be hugely cheaper than a CAF 197.

What will you do with the rest of the passengers for whom there's not enough room even on a 70 seat bus? That line sees full and standing services. Mind you, a permanent replacement of trains with buses will probably drive the tourists away.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What will you do with the rest of the passengers for whom there's not enough room even on a 70 seat bus? That line sees full and standing services. Mind you, a permanent replacement of trains with buses will probably drive the tourists away.

I've said before I could see the point in truncating it to Betws and enhancing the service to there as part of a new, massively upgraded integrated Snowdonia* Sherpa bus service. However closing it entirely would not be a good thing at all, nor would replacing it with a bus service on the existing frequency - the gain from buses would be improved frequency at lower cost (e.g. most people would prefer a bus hourly than a train every three hours).

* Sherpa'r Eryri - a much wider area than the present Sherpa'r Wyddfa.

 

[nwales58]

... the A470 from Blaenau Ffestiniog is sometimes closed in winter while the railway stays open.

20 years ago that was true. Unfortunately, since the A470 was rebuilt below Dolwyddelan and over the Crimea, the road now seldom closes. Weather pattern changes also mean few cold snowy days and far more days when then Conwy floods the railway.

Mind you, a permanent replacement of trains with buses will probably drive the tourists away.

as well as the regular users. The Cambrian Coast closures are good evidence, traffic evaporated this autumn. Services carrying around 5-10 passengers south of Barmouth, both buses combined, when the train would have been 30+ and that's in winter.

Basically, if you are poor and live in Blaenau you cannot reliably get to a job in Llandudno unless car sharing.

 

[AlastairFraser]

20 years ago that was true. Unfortunately, since the A470 was rebuilt below Dolwyddelan and over the Crimea, the road now seldom closes. Weather pattern changes also mean few cold snowy days and far more days when then Conwy floods the railway.

Although the Conwy Valley is less frequently closed following the long term work.

 

[mrd269697]

Why are rail anthusiasts advocating closure. Go away!

 

[nwales58]

Try living nearby. The you'll understand why public transport gets little use.

For long distance journeys it's far more dependable to drive to Bangor or Llandudno Junction. If only this was Switzerland.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Try living nearby. The you'll understand why public transport gets little use.

It doesn't get little use. Admittedly it only runs 0.333...tph, but it often runs full and standing these days, getting close to requiring a more frequent service or a 3-car unit in summer.

If Sherpa'r Wyddfa was better integrated with it it'd be even better used.

 

[Krokodil]

It doesn't get little use. Admittedly it only runs 0.333...tph, but it often runs full and standing these days, getting close to requiring a more frequent service or a 3-car unit in summer.

I think that the point being made by the PP is that there's a lot of potential custom out there, something a more frequent service with proper bus connections at Betws and Blaenau could exploit. As things stand though, anyone who works in Llandudno will find it convenient only if their work hours are 8-4, anyone working 9-5 is going to have a lot of waiting around town.

What doesn't help of course is that reliability is hampered by Cheap As F*** units that can't climb a hill. TfW's 150s are much maligned but at least they generally got the job done.

 

[Russel]

It doesn't get little use. Admittedly it only runs 0.333...tph, but it often runs full and standing these days, getting close to requiring a more frequent service or a 3-car unit in summer.

If Sherpa'r Wyddfa was better integrated with it it'd be even better used.

I've often wondered if an additional shuttle between Llandudno and Betws would be beneficial, every time I've used the Conwy Valley, Betws seems to be the main destination, obviously this would have to be paid for by someone though, so probably won't happen.

The Sherpa network has seen some decent improvements over the last two years so it's getting there, slowly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've often wondered if an additional shuttle between Llandudno and Betws would be beneficial, every time I've used the Conwy Valley, Betws seems to be the main destination, obviously this would have to be paid for by someone though, so probably won't happen.

TfW have talked about a few changes once everything on the Coast bar the LHCS is 197s, including things like through services from Manchester/Liverpool as a portion working, but I think that'll all be on the back burner until the core operation is stabilised. There are possibilities, though. Do I recall correctly that the loop at Llanrwst isn't presently passenger certified for passing trains, though? If so that'd need to be sorted too. Certainly with the whole Coast operated by 197s rather than the Valley being an island of a single 15x and nothing else suitable anywhere near it does present opportunities for a more useful timetable, though it's basically impossible to get it clockface without building another loop, I've tried to work out timetables before and even with two units you can't quite do two hourly clockface because the two units trip over each other.

 

[parkender102]

I've often wondered if an additional shuttle between Llandudno and Betws would be beneficial, every time I've used the Conwy Valley, Betws seems to be the main destination, obviously this would have to be paid for by someone though, so probably won't happen.

The Sherpa network has seen some decent improvements over the last two years so it's getting there, slowly.

It's a pity that the Traws Cymru Bus Network doesn't cover this important route (I suppose the argument is it's already got the train). I've found the Network very reliable the times I've used it between Mold, Wrexham, Welshpool, Corwen, Llangollen, Denbigh, Ruthin, Bewtws-y-Coed, Barmouth, Bala, Dolgellau and Ogwen Cottage

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a pity that the Traws Cymru Bus Network doesn't cover this important route (I suppose the argument is it's already got the train). I've found the Network very reliable the times I've used it between Mold, Wrexham, Welshpool, Corwen, Llangollen, Denbigh, Ruthin, Bewtws-y-Coed, Barmouth, Bala, Dolgellau and Ogwen Cottage

There was at one point a plan to have a few electric buses also running on the Valley under the Trawscymru T19 route so you would have an hourly service of either bus or train in any given hour, so it'd be two buses then a train repeating on a cycle. I don't know what happened to that or indeed where the vehicles ended up.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Why are rail anthusiasts advocating closure. Go away!

Apart from being an enthusiast, I am also a railwayman of 45.5 years.
I love the Conwy valley line and used it sometimes to visit my dad in Tanygrisiau. However, face facts that a decent spell of "Bwrw glaw" and the line gets flooded or washed away. Network Rail and the Senedd need to make the railway important all year round.

It would also help if a "Round Robin" service were properly enabled and advertised. I did it a few years ago travelling Penkridge-LLJ-BFS then on the Festiniog to Port, an hours lunch in Spooners, then the WHR to Caernarfon, bus to Bangor, 158 to Chester, voyager to Crewe and 350 back to Penkridge. It was a great trip but the times only matched up for about one week of the season.