Fare Dodging - received Email

[DumbCommuter]

Hi
I have been incredibly stupid by having done fare dodging for around two months by 1) using my any open return tickets throughout it's validity on the train (30 days each) into both directions. 2) at my station to get off I bought a return ticket from the next closest station with a job centre card to exit the station and enter again.


In total the amount dodged might be less than £200.

Today I have received an email from Northern Rail about suspicious booking activities on my account. I have not received a letter. There might have been a letter to my old student accommodation that I have not lived at for several years.

I am happy to own my mistakes and pay for any fines and fees.

Has anyone dealt with such a thing before and what best next steps are. What are the chances of an out of court settlement?

The letter states the following:

"There is no assumption of guilt at this stage in proceedings as we are simply undertaking an
investigation of what has been deemed, possible suspicious activity. Part of the investigation
is questioning you about the activity and this interview must be done in a formal setting
following legislation which would allow the content to be admissible as evidence at Court if
matters progressed to that stage. You are entitled to seek legal advice at your own cost and
arrangement in relation to this matter and any Solicitor you instruct can attend the interview
with you."

 

[AlterEgo]

Were you stopped and questioned, and caught “red handed” during one occasion? What has prompted this correspondence?

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Open returns generally not available for short journeys so I think you may find your estimate to be a little low, they will look to charge you the full anytime single for each journey undertook without taking into consideration any fares already paid

 

[DumbCommuter]

Were you stopped and questioned, and caught “red handed” during one occasion? What has prompted this correspondence?

No never caught red handed. The suspicious booking activities on Trainline must have triggered something in the system.

Never been challenged my conductors

Open returns generally not available for short journeys so I think you may find your estimate to be a little low, they will look to charge you the full anytime single for each journey undertook without taking into consideration any fares already paid

It's about a 30 minute ride. I usually would have taken the train 2-3 a week at a regular fare price of £11. So it might be a bit higher than £200 but not by much I think

 

[Hadders]

How regularly have your tickets been checked on board? Were they scanned by the guard? If the same ticket has been scanned multiple times then it's very easy for the train company to join the dots.

 

[DumbCommuter]

How regularly have your tickets been checked on board? Were they scanned by the guard? If the same ticket has been scanned multiple times then it's very easy for the train company to join the dots.

The tickets might have been checked once per week - very rarely. During rush hour a conductor has never bothered to come around. And then when asked to show the tickets, I had shown them my open return which they were happy with when scanning. Despite using the same ticket more than once throughout the month.

 

[Brissle Girl]

The tickets might have been checked once per week - very rarely. During rush hour a conductor has never bothered to come around. And then when asked to show the tickets, I had shown them my open return which they were happy with when scanning. Despite using the same ticket more than once throughout the month.

If the same ticket has been scanned more than once then they have the evidence they need for fraudulent activity. No doubt if you initially denied any wrongdoing at the interview they would then present the evidence to you.

 

[Hadders]

If the same ticket has been scanned more than once then they have the evidence they need for fraudulent activity. No doubt if you initially denied any wrongdoing at the interview they would then present the evidence to you.

I agree with this.

If you want to keep the matter out of court then you need to co-operate with Northern and come clean about what you've done. Northern will often agree to an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them and who haven't come to their attention before.

I would send a short reply outlining what you've done, research your online ticketing account so you can tell them how many times you've done this as it might avoid having to speak with them. In addition mention the following:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

If you are offered a settlement then expect to have to pay the cost of all the outstanding fares avoided at the full Anytime rate with no credit given for the tickets you did purchase. In addition you will have to pay an admin fee to reflect the cost of Northern's costs in investigatin this matter.

If you put a draft of your reply in this thread forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[DumbCommuter]

If the same ticket has been scanned more than once then they have the evidence they need for fraudulent activity. No doubt if you initially denied any wrongdoing at the interview they would then present the evidence to you.

Yeah makes sense. Happy to own that and pay up for that. Don't want to deny that.

If the same ticket has been scanned more than once then they have the evidence they need for fraudulent activity. No doubt if you initially denied any wrongdoing at the interview they would then present the evidence to you.

I agree with this.

If you want to keep the matter out of court then you need to co-operate with Northern and come clean about what you've done. Northern will often agree to an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them and who haven't come to their attention before.

Okay thanks! Yes not had an interview with them or gotten back to the mail yet. I don't want to deny any allegations. Happy pay up and get this resolved. Never had any issues with them or any other rail company before. First instance

 

[AlterEgo]

The alternative is to consider what happens to people who don’t receive the letter and the email from Northern is junked in your email inbox. My bet is nothing happens and Northern simply close the case. They are inviting you to an interview because they require you to incriminate yourself, as they have at best, circumstantial evidence.

“Some tickets got scanned more than once” is about it I think. If they’ve not actually caught you doing it there’s really not much they can do. However, they have succeeded in alarming you, and it is your choice how to proceed. Personally I’d ignore the email and imagine it went to my junk box. You might want to put the matter to bed by incriminating yourself and admitting to the offences, something you do not have to do, but it is your choice.

 

[Brissle Girl]

They are inviting you to an interview because they require you to incriminate yourself, as they have at best, circumstantial evidence.

“Some tickets got scanned more than once” is about it I think.

I’d suggest that is more than circumstantial evidence, and would easily stand up in court.

 

[AlterEgo]

I’d suggest that is more than circumstantial evidence, and would easily stand up in court.

Not if it’s the only evidence they have. That would be a laughable case to bring, because the defendant’s silence would almost certainly result in an acquittal. It’s a textbook example of circumstantial evidence, which requires an inference to connect the accused to a crime. Here, an inference is the scanned tickets were being used by the OP, something Northern probably doesn’t have evidence of - else they wouldn’t be inviting the OP to come and sit down with them to get them to admit to it.

It’s very likely Northern have no evidence at all other than some audit trail showing duplicate scans, which in itself begs the question as to why this wasn’t picked up earlier. They don’t have any direct evidence linking the OP to the duplicate scans.

So far we have seen zero examples of Northern proceeding with a prosecution of any offence where the OP wasn’t caught at the time. RoRA and Bylaw offences practically demand that the accused be caught actually doing it, red handed. For example, RoRA says:

If any person—

(a)Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof

Part of the offence means you have to prove the OP travelled or attempted to travel on the train, something which in practice is nearly impossible unless you catch them red handed during a revenue check.

It’s for the company to prove the offences, not the accused to prove their innocence. It’s up to Northern to prove the OP didn’t have a JCP card, something they can’t do unless they admit it. It’s up to Northern to prove the duplicate scans were done by the OP on trains in the past. It’s up to Northern to prove the passenger made journeys they weren’t entitled to.

It is up to the OP what to do (and it seems they would rather have this out of the way), but I’d put a lot of money on Northern sending out hundreds of these letters a year and only being able to proceed when people fess up at a PACE-compliant interview. Very unwise in my view, to attend, or even correspond. Loads of these letters must be ignored or not received every year.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

It’s very likely Northern have no evidence at all other than some audit trail showing duplicate scans, which in itself begs the question as to why this wasn’t picked up earlier. They don’t have any direct evidence linking the OP to the duplicate scans.

Although it may be worth noting that TfL are known to use CCTV in collaboration with ticket scanning to identify who has used a ticket. I’m not aware of Northern doing the same - but since they have successfully identified abuse of a number of tickets with a common purchaser, I don’t find it unimaginable that they might take the next step and acquire CCTV or bodycam footage associating one or more of those tickets with an identifiable image of a given traveller.

In other words, just because Northern have never yet (to our knowledge) successfully prosecuted for this sort of abuse, we can’t guarantee that they won’t this time.

 

[SteveM70]

I have been incredibly stupid by having done fare dodging for around two months by 1) using my any open return tickets throughout it's validity on the train (30 days each) into both directions.

An open return (or anytime short distance return as Northern call them now) is valid on day of issue only outbound and up to a month for the return leg

Have you been buying a return from both ends of your journey, to give you a month of validity in each direction?

If so, that’s surely raising a big red flag for Northern

 

[DumbCommuter]

An open return (or anytime short distance return as Northern call them now) is valid on day of issue only outbound and up to a month for the return leg

Have you been buying a return from both ends of your journey, to give you a month of validity in each direction?

If so, that’s surely raising a big red flag for Northern

Yes, exactly that plus the tickets with the jcp card to exit and enter the station.

Surely has triggered my account on their side.

Not if it’s the only evidence they have. That would be a laughable case to bring, because the defendant’s silence would almost certainly result in an acquittal. It’s a textbook example of circumstantial evidence, which requires an inference to connect the accused to a crime. Here, an inference is the scanned tickets were being used by the OP, something Northern probably doesn’t have evidence of - else they wouldn’t be inviting the OP to come and sit down with them to get them to admit to it.

It’s very likely Northern have no evidence at all other than some audit trail showing duplicate scans, which in itself begs the question as to why this wasn’t picked up earlier. They don’t have any direct evidence linking the OP to the duplicate scans.

So far we have seen zero examples of Northern proceeding with a prosecution of any offence where the OP wasn’t caught at the time. RoRA and Bylaw offences practically demand that the accused be caught actually doing it, red handed. For example, RoRA says:

If any person—

(a)Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof

Part of the offence means you have to prove the OP travelled or attempted to travel on the train, something which in practice is nearly impossible unless you catch them red handed during a revenue check.

It’s for the company to prove the offences, not the accused to prove their innocence. It’s up to Northern to prove the OP didn’t have a JCP card, something they can’t do unless they admit it. It’s up to Northern to prove the duplicate scans were done by the OP on trains in the past. It’s up to Northern to prove the passenger made journeys they weren’t entitled to.

It is up to the OP what to do (and it seems they would rather have this out of the way), but I’d put a lot of money on Northern sending out hundreds of these letters a year and only being able to proceed when people fess up at a PACE-compliant interview. Very unwise in my view, to attend, or even correspond. Loads of these letters must be ignored or not received every year.

I also agree with that point of view as well.

The thing is that the attached letter in the email contained my real name in the letter head and a very old address that I have not lived at for many many years.

Apart from the suspicious booking activities they don't have any proof (to my knowledge, otherwise the letter would probably be less vague) and the £ evaded (~£200) is relatively small in the grand scheme of things.

The letter starts off with:

"We have been alerted to activity on your ticket purchasing history which we feel warrants
further investigation. We would therefore like to invite you to an interview in relation to this."

It be good to understand both options and outcomes.

 

[AlterEgo]

Although it may be worth noting that TfL are known to use CCTV in collaboration with ticket scanning to identify who has used a ticket. I’m not aware of Northern doing the same - but since they have successfully identified abuse of a number of tickets with a common purchaser, I don’t find it unimaginable that they might take the next step and acquire CCTV or bodycam footage associating one or more of those tickets with an identifiable image of a given traveller.

In other words, just because Northern have never yet (to our knowledge) successfully prosecuted for this sort of abuse, we can’t guarantee that they won’t this time.

If they had conclusive CCTV evidence they’d just go ahead and start proceedings. It’s very likely they don’t, hence they are doing something different to TfL, and issuing such a warm and kind invitation to attend a PACE interview where the accused will almost certainly be unrepresented.

On body cams, these are not activated by staff unless there is a dispute. They don’t go around permanently recording like a panopticon.

Northern don’t even know what the OP looks like until they turn up to the interview.

They’re really lazy to be honest. If they really want a prosecution, stop the OP one time and get them red handed on a specimen offence. Then you can very easily link the accused to the other occasions. A half decent solicitor would rip any case apart that relied simply on some dodgy scans.

I’d be ignoring the correspondence and lying very low if I was the OP - and certainly buying the right tickets going forward. On paper, too, and not online. I’d wager that’s what many of the recipients of these letters do, and that’s those who are even aware they’ve been contacted. We aren’t here to do revenue protection’s work for them. I don’t think many people here understand the power of just shutting up.

 

[Hadders]

It be good to understand both options and outcomes.

Let's be clear that what you've being doing is against the law. The issue is what eveidence Northern have of your law breaking. Essentially you've got two choices:

1. Co-operate with Northern and you will almost certainly be offered a settlement. Pay the settlement and it'll be the end of the matter.

2. Ignore the matter completely as advocated by @AlterEgo Northern know you've been purchasing tickets that are suspicious which is why they've contacted you but buying tickets isn't illegal - using them is illegal. What you don't know is if Northern has any evidence of you using them. It's likely they haven't got any evidence of you using them other than circumstantial evidence which is probably insufficient to convict but we don't know this for certain. This is clearly a higher risk strategy, you're likely to get further letters as a minimum. If Northern can substantiate just one occasion of mis-use then they will prosecute you under the Regulation of the Railwys Act (not the Byelaws) which comes with a 'full fat' criminal record.

 

[AlterEgo]

I think I would also qualify my advice too that it is high risk and a personal preference. You should be aware that it is a strategy with risk, whereas fessing up and settling brings the matter to an expensive but speedy close. It’s up to the OP to choose what to do and I recognise most people who end up posting here would prefer the matter go away quickly.

Whichever you choose, I hope you will update us on the outcome.

 

[DumbCommuter]

Thanks everyone so far. I will do a bit more research over the coming days and let you know how it goes