GTR fare evasion for 5 months

[BD223]

Hi all, I know I’ve been so stupid, so I have was caught shorting my fare from Gatwick to London victoria today. I have been doing it for around 4-5 months at this point both ways going and return. I have been handed a slip from GTR and was told to wait up to 14 days for a letter, and if I felt respond to the letter that I may be prosecuted. I have been given a ticket before regarding the situation and I paid upfront on the day £65. Do you have any advice on the situation anything would be greatly appreciated. Just for more context I travel to and from around 3/4 times a week.

 

[Sultan]

You will need to provide more details I'm afraid. What tickets have you actually been purchasing from where to where? If GTR connect all the dots of your past purchasing history, expect to have to pay a significant sum. But until they write to you, we can only guess what action you will need to take. Prepare for the worst (court appearance) and gather a much information as possible yourself to better prepare yourself to respond. You don't have to incriminate yourself.

And definitely purchase the correct ticket for your entire journey from now on. You need to demonstrate that you won't do it again.

Until then..............

 

[BD223]

You will need to provide more details I'm afraid. What tickets have you actually been purchasing from where to where? If GTR connect all the dots of your past purchasing history, expect to have to pay a significant sum. But until they write to you, we can only guess what action you will need to take. Prepare for the worst (court appearance) and gather a much information as possible yourself to better prepare yourself to respond. You don't have to incriminate yourself.

And definitely purchase the correct ticket for your entire journey from now on. You need to demonstrate that you won't do it again.

Until then..............

Hi, thank you so much for your response just a bit more detail. I would buy a ticket from Victoria to Clapham Junction and then from Hawley to Gatwick Airport and then on the return as buy ticket from Gatwick to Horley. I completely understand what you mean and from here on out I really will never do that again.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

This could prove quite expensive to resolve. An Anytime Single from Gatwick Airport to London Victoria is £21.90 each way. Just three return journeys per week would be £131.40 per week. Over a five months period, that's going to be well over two and a half thousand pounds, probably more. In addition, GTR will be looking for a three figure sum towards their investigation and admin costs.

 

[BD223]

This could prove quite expensive to resolve. An Anytime Single from Gatwick Airport to London Victoria is £21.90 each way. Just three return journeys per week would be £131.40 per week. Over a five month period, that's going to be well over two and a half thousand pounds, probably more. In addition, GTR will be looking for a three figure sum towards their investigation and admin costs.

I worried as such, what is my best course of action right now, as I’m really young and I’m afraid this can affect me moving forward. What would be the best approach from me at this moment in time?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I have been given a ticket before regarding the situation and I paid upfront on the day £65.

just a bit more detail. I would buy a ticket from Victoria to Clapham Junction and then from Hawley to Gatwick Airport and then on the return as buy ticket from Gatwick to Horley. I completely understand what you mean and from here on out I really will never do that again.

@Sultan's advice is good - namely work out how often you have done this so you know how much GTR will be able to ask you for: and stop doing it.

I have to say that in my view you will be very lucky if you are able to avoid court on this one, in that it looks as if you were caught and given the benefit of the doubt (the £65 that you paid): part of the idea of this is that you should take the hint and stop fare dodging. But in your case, you don't seem to have done that. So GTR may well decide that the only thing that you will understand is appearing in front of the magistrate and receiving a fine, plus costs and compensation for the fare you didn't pay. So to maximise the chance of the railway being sympathetic, you need to stop fare dodging at once, so that when you appear in court you're in a better position to evidence that you have learnt your lesson.

 

[Sultan]

Hi, thank you so much for your response just a bit more detail. I would buy a ticket from Victoria to Clapham Junction and then from Hawley to Gatwick Airport and then on the return as buy ticket from Gatwick to Horley. I completely understand what you mean and from here on out I really will never do that again.

This is called 'doughnutting' where there is a hole of unpaid fare in the middle and after being caught you are firmly covered in jam. GTR will be able to request access to any on-line history with the major ticket retailers as well as possibly card history if purchased from a machine. These are the dots I was referring to. You may wish to prepare a spreadsheet of your history - not for submission to GTR but so you can cross-reference any journey list they may request more information on.

There is no obligation on you to provide journey history but you will likely need to offer answers to any of their questions. And should they take you to court, it will be your opportunity to have other journeys taken into account under the same charge.

If you can, try not to stress too much at this stage. You have to let the wheels turn and this will take time. Trying to fast-track more often complicates things.

 

[BD223]

This is called 'doughnutting' where there is a hole of unpaid fare in the middle and after being caught you are firmly covered in jam. GTR will be able to request access to any on-line history with the major ticket retailers as well as possibly card history if purchased from a machine. These are the dots I was referring to. You may wish to prepare a spreadsheet of your history - not for submission to GTR but so you can cross-reference any journey list they may request more information on.

There is no obligation on you to provide journey history but you will likely need to offer answers to any of their questions. And should they take you to court, it will be your opportunity to have other journeys taken into account under the same charge.

If you can, try not to stress too much at this stage. You have to let the wheels turn and this will take time. Trying to fast-track more often complicates things.

I understand completely, should I consider contacting a solicitor? As I have seen a lot of people do that on these forums? What is the realistic outcome when using a solicitor in your opinion?

 

[BD223]

This is called 'doughnutting' where there is a hole of unpaid fare in the middle and after being caught you are firmly covered in jam. GTR will be able to request access to any on-line history with the major ticket retailers as well as possibly card history if purchased from a machine. These are the dots I was referring to. You may wish to prepare a spreadsheet of your history - not for submission to GTR but so you can cross-reference any journey list they may request more information on.

There is no obligation on you to provide journey history but you will likely need to offer answers to any of their questions. And should they take you to court, it will be your opportunity to have other journeys taken into account under the same charge.

If you can, try not to stress too much at this stage. You have to let the wheels turn and this will take time. Trying to fast-track more often complicates things.

Okay I under completely, I have already purchased a weekly ticket for the next week. Do you think seeking legal council could help in a case like this, or in general?

 

[Haywain]

Do you think seeking legal council could help in a case like this, or in general?

You really do not need a solicitor at this stage. You are fortunate to be dealing with GTR as they are one of the more reasonable train companies in matters like this. They tend to be more reasonable in settling and ask for lower amounts than most companies. For now, try not to worry and when you receive the letter post it here (after redacting identifying information) and we can advise on how to respond.

 

[Sultan]

It is too early to seek legal counsel at this stage. Whether it warrants it once you have heard from GTR is arguable. You appear to have accepted the situation, and it seems (to me) to be open and shut case. All a legal person could achieve is a possible reduction in any fine given, but their fees are likely to me a lot more.

Good to hear you have purchased a weekly ticket.

Thanks for your message, do mean open and shut case as in more than likely going to receive a conviction based on my case? Or there isn’t much to look into ? Yes I have accepted it, it was my stupid actions that got me here I just want to set things right to be honest. Hopefully they take leniency on me as I’ve just started my professional career out of uni.

'Open and shut' as in they could take you to court for just the one offence, but GTR are usually more open to settling out of court. If they find out how long you have been doing it (and you don't have to bring it to their attention) then the settlement could be a significant sum, which I stress they are not obliged to offer you - they can go straight to court should they wish to make an example out of you.

But once you have received their letter, upload it here and you will receive a lot of considered advice on how to respond in a manner that gets you the best outcome given the circumstances.

 

[BD223]

It is too early to seek legal counsel at this stage. Whether it warrants it once you have heard from GTR is arguable. You appear to have accepted the situation, and it seems (to me) to be open and shut case. All a legal person could achieve is a possible reduction in any fine given, but their fees are likely to me a lot more.

Good to hear you have purchased a weekly ticket.

Thanks for your message, do mean open and shut case as in more than likely going to receive a conviction based on my case? Or there isn’t much to look into ? Yes I have accepted it, it was my stupid actions that got me here I just want to set things right to be honest. Hopefully they take leniency on me as I’ve just started my professional career out of uni.

You really do not need a solicitor at this stage. You are fortunate to be dealing with GTR as they are one of the more reasonable train companies in matters like this. They tend to be more reasonable in settling and ask for lower amounts than most companies. For now, try not to worry and when you receive the letter post it here (after redacting identifying information) and we can advise on how to respond.

Yes I understand, do you have any tips on how I could potentially go through all of my tickets and add up how much I’ve paid and avoided in the last few months. Is it best to include this on my reply letter or to have it just incase I’m asked for it or to supplement my case? Thank you again for your help.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes I understand, do you have any tips on how I could potentially go through all of my tickets and add up how much I’ve paid and avoided in the last few months. Is it best to include this on my reply letter or to have it just incase I’m asked for it or to supplement my case? Thank you again for your help.

Do not include any calculations in your reply. Wait for the letter before doing *anything*.

 

[BD223]

Okay thank you very much

 

[ikcdab]

I think he means that "open and shut" in that you really have no defence and you are guilty, so there won't be much arguing in court. You are not suggeting it was a mistake or that you didn't know it was wrong (not that either of those is a defence). You knew exactly what you were doing and you have done it on an industrial scale. So all you can do is to cooperate fully in order to minimise the costs to you. Because it is such an obvious case, I don't know what you would expect a solicitor to do. And their charge will be no less than £500 which just adds to what you have to pay.

 

[BD223]

I think he means that "open and shut" in that you really have no defence and you are guilty, so there won't be much arguing in court. You are not suggeting it was a mistake or that you didn't know it was wrong (not that either of those is a defence). You knew exactly what you were doing and you have done it on an industrial scale. So all you can do is to cooperate fully in order to minimise the costs to you. Because it is such an obvious case, I don't know what you would expect a solicitor to do. And their charge will be no less than £500 which just adds to what you have to pay.

Oh okay yes I do agree I am in the wrong and it’s my fault I’m in this mess I agree. Thank you for your clarification

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Yes I understand, do you have any tips on how I could potentially go through all of my tickets and add up how much I’ve paid and avoided in the last few months. Is it best to include this on my reply letter or to have it just incase I’m asked for it or to supplement my case? Thank you again for your help.

A lot of people buy their tickets on line. If that's you, go through the app and see when you travelled.

If you don't buy online then most likely you pay with plastic. And you should know how much the tickets cost. So go through your bank/credit card statements and add up the times when you bought tickets.

If you're someone who buys your tickets with cash, then you may have to do some estimating. You've already told us that you have been doing this for 5 months (the thread title) and that you travel around 3 or 4 times a week (the original post). So unless you have a diary that gives the days when you travelled (presumably the days you were expected in your office rather than working from home) and assuming 5 months each of 4 weeks, then you have done this somewhere between

5 months x 4 weeks x 3 days = 60 times

and

5 months x 4 weeks x 4 days = 80 times

Now take off any time when you were on holiday / off sick / whatever. Then double the number of days when you did it as GTR may very well want you to pay for an anytime single fare each way.

But as @AlterEgo says, don't send any of this in to the railway yet: at this point it's a matter of being prepared for what they might ask you.

 

[BD223]

A lot of people buy their tickets on line. If that's you, go through the app and see when you travelled.

If you don't buy online then most likely you pay with plastic. And you should know how much the tickets cost. So go through your bank/credit card statements and add up the times when you bought tickets.

If you're someone who buys your tickets with cash, then you may have to do some estimating. You've already told us that you have been doing this for 5 months (the thread title) and that you travel around 3 or 4 times a week (the original post). So unless you have a diary that gives the days when you travelled (presumably the days you were expected in your office rather than working from home) and assuming 5 months each of 4 weeks, then you have done this somewhere between

5 months x 4 weeks x 3 days = 60 times

and

5 months x 4 weeks x 4 days = 80 times

Now take off any time when you were on holiday / off sick / whatever. Then double the number of days when you did it as GTR may very well want you to pay for an anytime single fare each way.

But as @AlterEgo says, don't send any of this in to the railway yet: at this point it's a matter of being prepared for what they might ask you.

Okay thank you so much for the guidance I’ll get started on this right away. Thanks for your response also

 

[spag23]

Hopefully they take leniency on me as I’ve just started my professional career out of uni.

I really hope this doesn't come over as judgmental, but some people (including the rail company) might consider that an educated professional is less deserving of leniency than many other categories, eg, the unemployed, homeless or single parents.

 

[js1000]

Depends if GTR are investigating or not. It's up to them to prove you've been short-faring over a longer period and show evidence to support this. The more you say, the more you can implicate yourself so only respond if they ask you to.

I would caution that short-faring is probably the worse and train companies rightly hate it as it's very premeditated - your setting out to deliberately defraud the railway in the knowledge there is less likelihood they can catch you if you have a ticket of sorts. It's not really an even playing field.

Whereas travelling with no ticket - fine - but be prepared to if you want to pay up if we catch you.

 

[BD223]

Thanks very much for the advice. I’ve seen on other forums and in similar cases they’ve sent out a standard letter stating that they wish to prosecute you for dodging and evading fares. And in those instances each person had sent back a letter back detailing the events of just that day. If GTR were investigating me further would they send a standard letter or would they send a follow up? Apologies if this sounds like a stupid question as you can imagine I’m just really overthinking right now.

 

[Brissle Girl]

I really hope this doesn't come over as judgmental, but some people (including the rail company) might consider that an educated professional is less deserving of leniency than many other categories, eg, the unemployed, homeless or single parents.

I think this is absolutely right. Bearing in mind that this isn’t a one-off incident but industrial fare evasion over several months, a conviction would in those professions/industries for which integrity is an absolute requirement result in immediate dismissal and rightly so.

If a TOC fails to prosecute in that instance it leaves those reliant on such integrity, (be it the professions, employers or customers of their employers) in ignorance of the crime and thus exposed to the increased risk that the integrity requirement is there to remove.

 

[TheJester]

Honest question. Why, as an educated professional, once you had been caught once did you continue?
Did you not think they would catch you again? The £65 penalty was meant to be a warning.

 

[BD223]

Honest question. Why, as an educated professional, once you had been caught once did you continue?
Did you not think they would catch you again? The £65 penalty was meant to be a warning.

I was just stupid, and I’ve had a lot of financial burdens recently having to help out at more home and it was a really dumb thing to do. I realise that now more than ever.

 

[Haywain]

It's up to them to prove you've been short-faring over a longer period and show evidence to support this.

This really isn't true - they have the OP bang to rights on one offence and can successfully prosecute that offence. The OP would prefer to avoid conviction and will therefore have to go along with what GTR ask for unless they can provide compelling evidence that GTR are mistaken.

 

[Brissle Girl]

This really isn't true - they have the OP bang to rights on one offence and can successfully prosecute that offence. The OP would prefer to avoid conviction and will therefore have to go along with what GTR ask for unless they can provide compelling evidence that GTR are mistaken.

Added to which, they probably can prove it, by recording the times at which each ticket was scanned at the barriers, thus proving that a journey was undertaken with no ticket for the majority of it. Which I think in any court would be accepted as “beyond reasonable doubt”.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

To add to the advice that has already been said by forum members. GTR will write to you in the next few weeks. The letter will say that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events before deciding how to proceed. It is important that you reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. GTR are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before.

The complication in your case is that there are aggravating factors that could make obtaining a settlement harder: the fact that you've been evading your fares on an industrial scale over the last few months and the fact that you were caught previously yet still continued to evade your fare. Many would say that cases like this should be prosecuted and, if it isn't, wonder how serious a case has to be before it does end up in court. That said, on balance I expect you will be able to obtain a favourable outcome with GTR as long as you co-operate with them.

GTR will be able to search your purchase history and you will need to be careful how you reply to the letter. You should answer the questions they ask for truthfully but you are not required to incriminate yourself either. So if the letter only mentions the specific incident where you were caught then I would confine the reply to this incident only but if (as I suspect they will) they mention the possibility of other incidents then it would be wise to let them know about other occasions.

If you are offered a settlement the amount tends to be around £150 plus the outstanding fare. Expect to have to pay the full Anytime fare for all journeys made with no credit given for the value of tickets purchased. The settlement will need to be paid within a few days of it being offered, payment plans aren't offered (although we did have an isolated example of one being offered by GTR a few weeks ago). An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

My view is it isn't necessary to use a solicitor at this point. Wait for GTR's letter and send your reply, if the outcome is they want to prosecute then that would be the time to engage a solicitor.

Feel free to upload a copy of GTR's letter in this thread (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply and forum mebers will be happy to proof read it for you.



Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[Haywain]

I was just stupid, and I’ve had a lot of financial burdens recently having to help out at more home and it was a really dumb thing to do. I realise that now more than ever.

While you are asking on other threads about solicitors, you should be aware that using a solicitor will cost you something in the £500 to £800 area on top of the settlement and costs.

 

[BD223]

Hi thanks for the message, you’re right to be honest it’s really a lot of money. I just really feel uneasy about everything, I just want to look into all options.

 

[TheJester]

Sadly I fear the outcome of this exercise will end up costing you a lot of money regardless.
i‘d advise saving or arranging access to money, you may need to pay a settlement at short notice and you will usually have to pay in one go.