How Long to build and install a Signal Box 1870's

[Andy873]

If we can imagine back in the 1870's the need for a new signal box, how long would it take to build it, install it's interlocking frame, cable up the points and signals etc?

I'm looking at a Saxby & Farmer design, the ground floor that houses the frame is brick built, and the cabin and roof are wooden. Let's say it has 23 levers, 22 working and 1 spare.

You would need to:

1. Order the ground frame
2. You'd need some "brickies" for the ground floor.
3. Carpenter(s) for the first floor that houses the levers and block instruments plus the stairs up to the door.
4. Glaziers for the windows.
5. Signalling contractors to fit the frame, connect the points and signals and test all work correctly.

You would also have to install telegraph poles and connect wires for communication to the boxes either side of this new one, install the block instruments and test them too.

All of the above takes time. but what's your guess? a few weeks? 3 - 6 months?

This box would be on a new (yet to be opened) line. I'm trying to establish just how late you could leave building this box before opening the line, initially to goods only.

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[Gloster]

This is an enormous question and we don’t even have a clear starting point.

A few thoughts. A lot of planning work would go on from an early date, but some would not be started until other parts of the project were decided. Much of the material was either standard parts from stock or readied in advance : lever frames (I presume that is what you mean by ground frames) were frequently assembled in the builder’s or railway’s workshop and checked. Installation of items, such as telegraph poles, might have to be tied into other work being done on the site. Point rodding and signal wires would be amongst the last items done.

It is really impossible to come up with an one size fits all estimate, but I would think that it could be down to a few weeks in some cases. Other than the brickwork and telegraph poles, the rest could be installed surprisingly quickly.

 

[randyrippley]

Building the shell of the box wouldn't take long. Assuming no weather problems then
2-3 days to dig out and level the site
2-3 days build the foundations - presumably all brickwork with a wooden suspended floor, not concrete?
2-3 days to put up the brickwork
2 days to fit the timbering on the 1st floor (almost certainly already prepared offsite as a kit of parts)
1 day to put the roof on
1 day for the glazing
So around two weeks, then whatever it took to fit the frame, leverage, control rods, bell wiring etc. Another 2 weeks maybe?
Unlikely to have been much in the way of plumbing on site - probably no water supply, and toilet would have been an external earth closet

 

[Rescars]

There are a lot of variables here. Some companies designed their own boxes. The GWR did almost everything in-house and had a signal works at Reading. Others contracted them out - to the likes of Saxby and Farmer. Some boxes were almost entirely made of timber, whilst others were entirely brick. I think the contractors had standard pattern designs, so could no doubt supply all the parts for the structure as well as the interlocking frame quite rapidly. If the circumstances called for a bespoke design, no doubt matters took rather longer.

The OP suggests the line was to be opened for freight only. It is possible that simpler arrangements might apply to a freight only layout, whilst something more substantial might be needed if the line was also intended to be used by passenger traffic.

 

[Snow1964]

I have read in some railway history books that it was fairly quick in 1870s (for normal small stations, not big stations, junctions or quadrupling etc which had larger, often bespoke designs). I think @randyrippley is correct 2 maybe 3 weeks.

Have to remember that 1870s was a period when many signal boxes with interlocking were newly added. Teams would literally move from doing one to the next station, and the parts would arrive in couple of rail wagons, one for building (almost kit style), and perhaps third wagon with frame direct from signalling works.

Because railways were expanding then, was normal to use a standard design, often with few spare levers in case of further expansion.

 

[randyrippley]

Interesting thought actually.........would the masonry have been built before the frame was put in place, the frame being bolted together on site? Or built up around a frame that was preassembled and craned in as a complete unit?

 

[Gloster]

I have just looked at The Signal Box (The Signalling Study Group, OPC, 1986), which was the obvious place to look, and it gives some information. It says that for an average station eight or nine weeks seems to have been the norm (this appears to include the building work). A contract for Welland Bridge (GN) gives 1 1/2 months from acceptance of the contract. There is a mention of a contract at Claypole (GN) being cancelled because the contractor wanted thirteen, rather than six, weeks. Both of these are fairly simple layouts: a level-crossing and a small station, both on double-track. Large scale work, such as where an existing major station was being remodelled, could take much longer.

At the other end of the scale is a photo of Grove Park box, brick to the bottom of the operating floor windows, which was opened on 4 September 1938 as a replacement for a box burnt out on 23 August. It did incorporate some of the old box’s brickworks, but this would also have meant that the site would have to be cleared of the old one’s remains first.

 

[stuving]

By the 1870s most new signal boxes and with fully interlocked machinery would be replacements. Those might get reported as an upgrade, though of course it's the ones where the handover went wrong and someone was killed that get most coverage (of the inquest). Whether a new line would take more or less time is hard to say, but I can't see why it would be reported as a separate task - it's just part of the overall work on a new line.

But here is one example: the Wortley Junction accident on December 24h 1877 happened just as a new signal box came into use. At the inquest, the signal foreman said the construction started in the first week of August, and carried on continuously until the accident. He had fourteen men. Some work went on after that, mainly clearing up and removing the old box - important in this case as it obstructed the signalman's sightlines so part of it was taken down on the day.

 

[John Webb]

Interesting thought actually.........would the masonry have been built before the frame was put in place, the frame being bolted together on site? Or built up around a frame that was preassembled and craned in as a complete unit?

The frame couldn't be put in place without support being present as they weigh a lot, so I would expect boxes with brick or stone bases would have these bases built first together with the supports needed for the frame.
Lever frames could be brought to site as a unit and craned into place before any part of the wooden top was built, or even craned in over walls before the roof was added. Some lever frames were made of standard units bolted together so could be assembled on site after erection and testing at the signal works before being dismantled. This had to be done for the larger boxes where the size and therefore the weight of the frame was too much to transport as a single unit or to lift it into place.

 

[Rescars]

I wonder how the LBSC set about installing the frames located on the platforms of smaller stations like Amberley and Sheffield Park. I also wonder how "knee frames" were installed in station buildings, as at Betchworth. By comparison, constructing a separate free-standing box seems a lot easier.

 

[Andy873]

The general census of opinion is that if a box needs to be built and nothing "special" is required then two months could easily see that box built, installed and working.

The other point made is that the signal contractors would (if required) then move onto build the next one.

1875 - This year crops up time and again (for various reasons) regarding this branch line...

If you can imagine this line 9 miles long split into two sections, East and West. East being 2 miles long and West 7. East was the easiest part to construct, and it opened initially for goods July 1875.

Next up, on the Western section it's stated two boxes were erected in (guess what?) 1875. One box was only 1 mile from the East section, the other 5 miles West in the middle of the countryside.

Now I have some working theories:

1. All the boxes East & West were erected 1875, the ones in the East portion first as that section was ready for opening.

2. The two East boxes could be from 1873 or 1874 and the west ones later in 1875.
(1873 was the year the East junction box was installed and inspected).

My gut feeling is option 1 is the more likely. As pointed out, if you're going to place an order for one box, you might as well do it for all original 6.

What do you all think please?

I have two more things of note:

On the west section, the larger station had two boxes, East & West. East virtually controlled the whole station and was situated next to the Up siding. By May 1884 it became sandwiched in between the Up siding and the new four lane carriage sidings.
In July 1889 a contract was won to build a four lane carriage shed and East box was in the way. A new one was built on the Down side and the 23 lever frame was re-used in this new box. In this instance, speed would have been needed.

Question - How quickly could you move a frame from one box to another and re-cable everything? and how would you control traffic during this change over period? The line is already open for both goods and passengers.

The second one of note is this, the western junction box was inspected June 1876, the diagram also shows some sidings which we think were used to aid the construction of the line. If you've already got a physical junction there before 1876, how would you control engineering trains exiting from or going onto this new line?

 

[John Webb]

......I have two more things of note:

On the west section, the larger station had two boxes, East & West. East virtually controlled the whole station and was situated next to the Up siding. By May 1884 it became sandwiched in between the Up siding and the new four lane carriage sidings.
In July 1889 a contract was won to build a four lane carriage shed and East box was in the way. A new one was built on the Down side and the 23 lever frame was re-used in this new box. In this instance, speed would have been needed.

Question - How quickly could you move a frame from one box to another and re-cable everything? and how would you control traffic during this change over period? The line is already open for both goods and passengers.....

A 23-lever frame could be lifted out as one unit and dropped into the new box. But this would need a complete engineer's possession of the line for some hours. My guess is that it probably took a day to do everything, starting in the very early hours of the morning.
Preparatory work before the possession would include setting up the supports ('stools') for the point rodding and new signal wire pulleys ready for the changeover.
It may be that once the engineers had finished the heavy work and had moved out of the way traffic could resume while the final connections were made; it would be hand-signalled from the lineside, the hand-signallers working under the orders of a senior signalman.

Most railway companies issued 'Weekly Notices' to their staff giving details of alterations to signalling, changes in speed restrictions, where work was being done on stations or goods yards and the like. It may be worth seeing if the NRM or National Archives have any for your area of interest. They may clarify if the line was closed for a day (or not) for the work to be done.

 

[Snow1964]

Question - How quickly could you move a frame from one box to another and re-cable everything? and how would you control traffic during this change over period? The line is already open for both goods and passengers.

Back then Labour was fairly cheap so bringing in big teams, all with specific tasks to do wasn't uncommon. Some railways even had trains that nowadays would be described as welfare accommodation, not portakabins, but trains for workers to be based in, bringing them to site from another city, to eat and sometimes sleep, which would be parked in any nearby siding

The last big example I can find quickly is the overnight introduction of Waterloo signal box in 1936, which included bringing into use the new Wimbledon flyover, reversing direction of two tracks from flyover to Waterloo, including slewing and connecting them, new multi aspect colour lights replacing semaphores, all done overnight in few hours, with bit of hand signalling of newspaper trains etc.

Also have to remember that in 1870s there was very little traffic on Sundays, and some lines hardly ran anything during church time (Sunday morning).

 

[Rescars]

Question - How quickly could you move a frame from one box to another and re-cable everything? and how would you control traffic during this change over period? The line is already open for both goods and passengers.

I would guess this would only have taken no more than a day to complete. This is on the assumption that everything had been fully prepared in advance so that it would just be a case of breaking the existing connections, moving the frame and then making the new connections. Hand signalling and clipped points would surely have been the order of the day if there was any traffic passing whilst the work was being carried out.

By the late Victorian era the railways had become very effective in preparing for and delivering significant enhancements with minimum disruption to normal traffic. The GWR converted over 170 route miles of broad gauge to narrow (standard) gauge over just one weekend in 1892 - and with no reported overrunning works on the Monday morning!

 

[zwk500]

I wonder how the LBSC set about installing the frames located on the platforms of smaller stations like Amberley and Sheffield Park. I also wonder how "knee frames" were installed in station buildings, as at Betchworth. By comparison, constructing a separate free-standing box seems a lot easier.

The victorians were very adept at designing products to be broken down for shipping. Bringing in a big group of casual labourers for a weekend would have been second nature to victorian contractors, and the parts all numbered ready for assembly.

A 23-lever frame could be lifted out as one unit and dropped into the new box. But this would need a complete engineer's possession of the line for some hours. My guess is that it probably took a day to do everything, starting in the very early hours of the morning.

I'd be surprised if a crane was used for something over a weekend, unless the roof of the new box was able to be finished in double quick time! I know victorian railways were less concerned about the comfort of their staff but presumably the block instruments and so forth would need a weatherproof covering.

 

[Rescars]

With thanks to The Port Road, by Andrew Swan, here is a more recent tale by way of comparison. In the wilds of Galloway, the wooden GSWR style signal cabin at Creetown was destroyed by fire around midnight on 28th May 1931, along with two tablet instruments and its 15 lever frame. A temporary frame and replacement tablet instruments were set up in a hut and normal working recommenced on 31st May. The box was replaced by a brick-built one - a LMS version of a Caledonian design and equipped with a 20 lever frame, which was opened in December 1931. The speed of getting things done appear to have slowed somewhat since the 1890s.

 

[zwk500]

With thanks to The Port Road, by Andrew Swan, here is a more recent tale by way of comparison. In the wilds of Galloway, the wooden GSWR style signal cabin at Creetown was destroyed by fire around midnight on 28th May 1931, along with two tablet instruments and its 15 lever frame. A temporary frame and replacement tablet instruments were set up in a hut and normal working recommenced on 31st May. The box was replaced by a brick-built one - a LMS version of a Caledonian design and equipped with a 20 lever frame, which was opened in December 1931. The speed of getting things done appear to have slowed somewhat since the 1890s.

I wonder where the equipment was found to rebuild a frame in 3 days.

 

[randyrippley]

A 23-lever frame could be lifted out as one unit and dropped into the new box. But this would need a complete engineer's possession of the line for some hours. My guess is that it probably took a day to do everything, starting in the very early hours of the morning.
Preparatory work before the possession would include setting up the supports ('stools') for the point rodding and new signal wire pulleys ready for the changeover.
It may be that once the engineers had finished the heavy work and had moved out of the way traffic could resume while the final connections were made; it would be hand-signalled from the lineside, the hand-signallers working under the orders of a senior signalman.

Most railway companies issued 'Weekly Notices' to their staff giving details of alterations to signalling, changes in speed restrictions, where work was being done on stations or goods yards and the like. It may be worth seeing if the NRM or National Archives have any for your area of interest. They may clarify if the line was closed for a day (or not) for the work to be done.

I think it would take more than a day. Remove and lift the roof and top of the old box, remove the floor boards, disengage the old frame, lift and move it, drop into the new box, fit new floor above frame, fit timber upper deck, roof and glaze. Reconnect frame to new rodwork, connect bells/telephones. More like 2-3 days as a minimum, in reality closer to a week

I wonder where the equipment was found to rebuild a frame in 3 days.

Probably redundant from another site that had been upgraded

 

[etr221]

I think the railways kept a fair amount of spare equipment on hand for emegncies.

There is an interesting read at https://www.wbsframe.mste.co.uk/public/Cannon_Street.html on what happened after the Cannon Street signal box fire of 5th April 1957: station partially reopened in 3 days ('signalled' from a goods brake van!), temporary signal frame (and station 'completely' reopened) 5th May; new permanent signal box commissioned 15th December...

 

[Rescars]

I wonder where the equipment was found to rebuild a frame in 3 days.

And get it to Galloway too. Hardly the most convenient of locations!

 

[Andy873]

As mentioned, the probable answer to just how long it took to move this station's East box would be in some weekly notice, trying to find any relevant ones is another matter.

I've been talking on the Signal Box forum about some of these boxes on the line, and I'm told that's it's not a given that say lever 1 (for a red station home signal) would be lever 1 in the new box - although it would be logical to leave the numbers the same.
That said, sometimes simple logic can be wrong.

If the lever numbers were changed, you'd have to re-label the box diagram, if they remain the same, just take the old diagram and draw the box in its new position.

Would there be a short period of disorientation?
If you were a regular signaller in the old box and you suddenly find yourself in the new box on the opposite side, everything is opposite way around.

When to move a box? - On this line in the 1880's there was (as suggested) far less trains on Sundays, just seven (and no freight). I know two footbridges were erected on Sundays (or over several Sundays) for example. It could be that with all the preparatory work done (new pulleys, cables, the brick foundations and frame supports) that true move started. It would certainly give you a head start on the weekday traffic.

Regarding frames being re-used by the railway companies - This station's West box with 16 levers was strangely never officially opened (no idea why), and soon after the full line opened for traffic (don't know how soon) this box was demolished and replaced with a 4 lever ground frame. Its 16 lever frame was then relocated to Portsmouth West box (on the Copy Pit line). Later in 1888 this 4 lever GF was itself replaced with a 20 lever one. This new ground frame looked in appearance as an actual signal box but without the block instruments.

Why would you never use a box but yet replace it with a 4 lever ground frame?

Here are links for the 1888 box diagrams drawn by John Hinson of the Signal Box website you might be interested in seeing (Red for new, Green for Old / Removed):

East Box 1888
West Ground Frame (1888)

And on the subject of signal boxes, does anyone know or can guess what a new box (complete) would have cost back in the 1870's - '80s?