HS1 Circular Fare

[TobyH]

Morning all,

I am travelling down to London next month and have a couple of hours spare so out of curiosity I am considering taking a trip on a Class 395. The most likely service I'll use will be 1C22 starting and terminating at St. Pancras. If I was to travel the entire circular route what ticket(s) would be valid and give the best deal?

Thanks in advance.

 

[30907]

NRE gives me an itinerary for Whitstable the long way round.

Provided you don't break your journey that should, in theory, apply to anywhere en route, though I'd advise printing off the itinerary in case of challenge.

I am sure members here have tested this out and will have more detailed advice.

Assuming 1C22 runs when offpeak day returns to your chosen station are valid, that will be the cheapest fare.

 

[embers25]

NRE gives me an itinerary for Whitstable the long way round.

Provided you don't break your journey that should, in theory, apply to anywhere en route, though I'd advise printing off the itinerary in case of challenge.

I am sure members here have tested this out and will have more detailed advice.

Assuming 1C22 runs when offpeak day returns to your chosen station are valid, that will be the cheapest fare.

An Ebbsfleet to Gravesend plus high speed off peak day return for £3.90 covers the full loop from Ebbsfleet back to Ebbsfleet but not the Ebbsfleet to London bit. London-Gravesend plus high speed for £16.40 Off Peak Day Return should cover London back to London.

Again, with either of these tickets be prepared for an argument but they are 100% valid.

 

[Hadders]

There was a forum trip over this route last year. An Ebbsfleet-Gravesend Off Peak Day Return combined with an appropriate ticket to get you from St Pancras to Ebbsfleet will suffice.

It's 100% valid as stated above but I'd recommend stepping back a train at Ebbsfleet and it'll help if you hold an itinerary from a booking site.

 

[embers25]

There was a forum trip over this route last year. An Ebbsfleet-Gravesend Off Peak Day Return combined with an appropriate ticket to get you from St Pancras to Ebbsfleet will suffice.

It's 100% valid as stated above but I'd recommend stepping back a train at Ebbsfleet and it'll help if you hold an itinerary from a booking site.

St Pancras to Ebbsfleet is the same prices as St Pancras to Gravesend so best option is just to get a through ticket to gravesend...unless anyone knows better

 

[ainsworth74]

I would agree with all of the above. The ticket is valid but be prepared for an argument at some stage.

 

[talldave]

St Pancras to Ebbsfleet is the same prices as St Pancras to Gravesend so best option is just to get a through ticket to gravesend...unless anyone knows better

There is a return ticket from Ebbsfleet to somewhere else which is cheaper than the ticket to St Pancras, but the ticket barriers at St Pancras always reject it so you'll have to go through a manned barrier. The OP's welcome to PM as I don't want to spoil the fun for anyone else like me who uses it regularly.

 

[TobyH]

Thanks for all the replies. Would my understanding be correct on thinking all the suggested tickets are valid due to the through train rule?

There is a return ticket from Ebbsfleet to somewhere else which is cheaper than the ticket to St Pancras, but the ticket barriers at St Pancras always reject it so you'll have to go through a manned barrier. The OP's welcome to PM as I don't want to spoil the fun for anyone else like me who uses it regularly.

PM sent. Many Thanks
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thanks for all the replies. Would my understanding be correct on thinking all the suggested tickets are valid due to the through train rule?

Anyone? Just so I can be prepared if/when it is challenged.

Thanks

 

[swt class 450]

An Ebbsfleet to Gravesend plus high speed off peak day return for £3.90 covers the full loop from Ebbsfleet back to Ebbsfleet but not the Ebbsfleet to London bit. London-Gravesend plus high speed for £16.40 Off Peak Day Return should cover London back to London.

Again, with either of these tickets be prepared for an argument but they are 100% valid.

Out of interest would you be allowed to break your journey using that ticket? If so then it is very good value for £3.90!

 

[yorkie]

Board at Ebbsfleet, on a train which is next stop Ashford, with a return from Ebbsfleet to Gravesend, purchased on the Southeastern website, with an itinerary showing a through train via your intended route. It's then not only permitted in the conditions, but additionally valid as per contract & consumer law too.

We will do this as a forum meet at some point; PM me if you want to join us.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Out of interest would you be allowed to break your journey using that ticket? If so then it is very good value for £3.90!

Don't even think about it unless you've consulted a solicitor and you & your solicitor are confident that you would be able to defend yourself in the event of legal action being taken against you!

Feel free to discuss further at Taking direct/through trains (taking routes not otherwise permitted): is BOJ allowed?

Previous threads (all referring to the old Conditions of Carriage) have included:

• Valid Routes between London Bridge and London Victoria (2015)
• Is a no-changes journey always a permitted route? (Retford to Adwick) (2013)
• Bizarre ticketing prices today (Gainsborough to Adwick) (2013)
  
• Circular Services and the Routeing Guide (and break of journey) (2011)
• Romsey - Southampton via Eastleigh (2009)

 

[Merseysider]

What yorkie has posted above is excellent advice.

I should add this excerpt from the latest version of the National Rail Conditions of Travel (my bold):

Generally, you may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return Ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the Ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. However, this may not be the case with some through services that take an indirect route. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return Ticket) before the destination shown on the Ticket.

INFORMATION: For example, where a train service makes a circular journey, you may travel either way to the destination on your
ticket. However, you would not normally be allowed to get off at an intermediate station where the fare would have been higher.

Whilst the wording is slightly vague, I believe the intended message is clear. I would think very carefully indeed about whether the potential cost, time and argument is worth making that break of journey.

 

[RJ]

Out of interest would you be allowed to break your journey using that ticket? If so then it is very good value for £3.90!

No. The Routing Guide has always alluded to circuitous/non mapped routes only being valid if travelling on one through train for the whole journey. Some people unreasonably took this to mean that any route with a direct train service could be used with full break of journey privileges.

 

[TobyH]

Thanks for the detailed responses, got my head arond it now. I could be interested in the forum trip depending on dates

 

[furlong]

No. The Routing Guide has always alluded to circuitous/non mapped routes only being valid if travelling on one through train for the whole journey.

That is disputable, as discussed many times on this forum. The break of journey provisions are an independent condition.

Some people unreasonably took this to mean that any route with a direct train service could be used with full break of journey privileges.

The ambiguities remain in the new CoT, leaving you to infer what the contract means, and leaving the company trying to enforce restrictions that it unfathomably didn't make explicit.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Also up for a forum trip on this route, lots of required track there plus Im a self confessed adict to HS1. Will PM you Yorkie

 

[Paul Kelly]

The ambiguities remain in the new CoT, leaving you to infer what the contract means, and leaving the company trying to enforce restrictions that it unfathomably didn't make explicit.

Indeed; the highlighted sentences in JakeF's post are very vague and woolly and appear to me to have been carefully crafted in order to create FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) whilst not actually having any legal effect. (But I still wouldn't break my journey at Ramsgate on an Ebbsfleet to Gravesend ticket! Just for the sake of avoiding excess hassle.)

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Seriously, how can anyone holding a £3.90 ticket, taking a ridiculously long way round, truly think it would be valid for BOJ at Ramsgate (or anywhere else) ?
If it were valid, everyone who knows about it would in effect be able to use it as a (very) cheap day return from Ebbsfleet - Ramsgate, claiming 'I'm just breaking / resuming my journey here' at the Ramsgate gateline.

Why pay £28.40 if a £3.90 return would be valid in the way it has been suggested ?

 

[notadriver]

I will do my part and make sure Southeastern staff are aware of this.

 

[yorkie]

Seriously, how can anyone holding a £3.90 ticket, taking a ridiculously long way round, truly think it would be valid for BOJ at Ramsgate (or anywhere else) ?

Because that's how they interpret the conditions. See posts above.

If it were valid, everyone who knows about it would in effect be able to use it as a (very) cheap day return from Ebbsfleet - Ramsgate, claiming 'I'm just breaking / resuming my journey here' at the Ramsgate gateline.

Yes.

Why pay £28.40 if a £3.90 return would be valid in the way it has been suggested ?

Good question. To avoid potential arguments and legal action?

 

[Merseysider]

I will do my part and make sure Southeastern staff are aware of this.

They've been aware of it for over a year now...

 

[notadriver]

They've been aware of it for over a year now...

That was over a year ago then. They will have had new entrants etc. The £3.90 fare is something that needs to be highlighted to avoid unnecessary arguments.


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[RJ]

Seriously, how can anyone holding a £3.90 ticket, taking a ridiculously long way round, truly think it would be valid for BOJ at Ramsgate (or anywhere else) ?
If it were valid, everyone who knows about it would in effect be able to use it as a (very) cheap day return from Ebbsfleet - Ramsgate, claiming 'I'm just breaking / resuming my journey here' at the Ramsgate gateline.

Why pay £28.40 if a £3.90 return would be valid in the way it has been suggested ?

The price is irrelevant to be honest. Back in the day, a Gravesend to Ebbsfleet ticket was valid via St Pancras and Blackfriars as London was a route code in the Routeing Guide. I was more than happy to pay the £3.60 or whatever it was to cover that part of HS1. Most people will pay more than they need to as buying a ticket isn't something that most people want to put any extra thought into.

 

[notadriver]

The price is irrelevant to be honest.

But it's not advertised as a through train from Ebbsfleet but as a service terminating at Sandwich (Via Ashford)


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[greatkingrat]

If you do a search on NRE it is shown as a direct train with no changes required.

 

[RJ]

If you do a search on NRE it is shown as a direct train with no changes required.

Indeed. It's the same with all circular services which run as one trip with false destinations. Another example is on SWT, where a Clapham Junction to Earlsfield ticket can be used via the Kingston or Hounslow loop. NRE is also good for advertising the shortest route, especially in Kent where lines cross each other with no physical link - no limits on break of journey with those ones.....

 

[notadriver]

What happens during engineering works when the circular service doesn't run?


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[RJ]

What happens during engineering works when the circular service doesn't run?


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If there are no through trains then it's mapped or shortest routes only, in addition to whatever alternative arrangements are advertised.

 

[notadriver]

So could use the 3.90 ticket to say travel to Ashford, then board a rail replacement bus to Dover, reboard the train service (probably a main line shuttle to Ramsgate) and get on the Javelin from there ?


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[MikeWh]

So could use the 3.90 ticket to say travel to Ashford, then board a rail replacement bus to Dover, reboard the train service (probably a main line shuttle to Ramsgate) and get on the Javelin from there ?


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No, because that isn't a through train. Well that's my understanding anyway. It needs to be advertised on NRE as a no changes option between origin and destination which wouldn't be the case if an RRB was involved.

 

[Merseysider]

So could use the 3.90 ticket to say travel to Ashford, then board a rail replacement bus to Dover, reboard the train service (probably a main line shuttle to Ramsgate) and get on the Javelin from there ?


Sent from my...

I would say not, as that isn't a through service. I don't believe the Conditions allow this kind of journey, on an itinerary involving changes on a circular/indirect route which coincidentally also has through trains.