Lost ticket and unpaid fare notice (Leeds-London on EC)

[Clyde]

That should be the other way around, no?

In reality, over the whole network, very few stations have barriers.

oops. there was a "n't" missing there!
i only have experience of leeds and kings x really
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So why not use them then as they seem to be more favourable to you ?

From the National EXpress Coach website

I've lost my ticket. Can you send a new one?

No, we are unable to replace your ticket if lost, mislaid or stolen. You are required to purchase a new ticket
Oh dear, so much more flexible than East Coast then who let you travel without a ticket ?

that's not strictly true as all you need is a printout or a reference number, so if you lose your ticket, you just print out another one or show the email on your phone.
As for using them, I do use coaches regularly, more often than the train.

 

[yorkie]

oops. there was a "n't" missing there!
i only have experience of leeds and kings x really

Leeds has barriers that will accept almost any ticket, King's Cross has barriers at most platforms, and in both cases accompanying someone else to see them off, would get you through the barriers (at Leeds they'd probably insist on issuing a platform ticket, for about 20 or 40p). An Oyster card would open the barriers at King's Cross, or a single to Finsbury Park. I am unsure what any of this has to do with proving a Leeds to King's Cross lost ticket has not been used by anyone else though.

 

[Clyde]

On the basis that you could not manage to carry your wallet safely :roll::roll::roll:

no, i do take responsibility for losing my wallet.
i just don't think it should just end there and then if you've lost your ticket. there should be other acceptable ways of demonstrating that you have bought a ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

East Coast appear to have allowed you to travel without a ticket on the understanding that you pay for the privilege later. That's not so bad of them.

I'm sorry, but I think I was misinformed that this forum was for consumers. Are you an EC employee?

 

[Old Timer]

that's not strictly true as all you need is a printout or a reference number, so if you lose your ticket, you just print out another one or show the email on your phone.
As for using them, I do use coaches regularly, more often than the train.

That is at odds with what they say on their website, as I copied and posted.

Clause 4.5 from the Terms and Conditions states

4.5 You must travel with a valid ticket:
(a) Travel without a valid ticket: You must travel with a valid ticket. You will be considered to have travelled without a valid ticket if
you travel:-
without any ticket at all
or fail to purchase a ticket from the driver prior to the departure of the service
or you travel with a ticket which you are not entitled to
or you travel without a ticket which you have purchased
you travel on any service on which your ticket does not permit travel
you travel in breach of the General Conditions of Carriage or any Special Conditions applicable to your ticket
or you travel after the expiry date of your ticket, or you travel further than your ticket permits
or you travel with a ticket which is declared by these General Conditions of Carriage or any Special Conditions to be invalid.
Any customers that do not hold a valid ticket will be charged a £20 penalty charge, plus the cost of a standard ticket for
that journey. We reserve the right to prosecute any customer travelling without a valid ticket who does not pay the £20
penalty charge, plus the cost of a standard ticket for that journey.
(b) Effect of travelling without a valid ticket: We will not allow you to board a service if you do not have a valid ticket or fail to
purchase one from the driver. If you do travel on any service without a valid ticket, you must leave the service when asked, and we
will remove you from the coach if you refuse, unless you immediately purchase a valid ticket for your journey and you pay (i) the full
appropriate fare as specified by the driver for the journey which you are making and (ii) a £20 penalty charge in accordance with
condition 4.5(a) above. If you are using a discount ticket which is not valid for that service because you are using it on the wrong
day or at the wrong time, or the card is not in your name, you must pay (i) an excess fare up to the amount of the full standard fare
for the journey you are making and (ii) a £20 penalty charge in accordance with condition 4.5(a) above. If you travel with a FunFare
on any journey other than the one for which the ticket was purchased, you will be charged (i) the full single fare applicable to the
journey at that time and day and (ii) a £20 penalty charge in accordance with condition 4.5(a) above.

Someone is right and someone is wrong.

 

[Clyde]

That is at odds with what they say on their website, as I copied and posted.

Clause 4.5 from the Terms and Conditions states




Someone is right and someone is wrong.

i think we're both right as a printout of a ticket constitutes as a ticket. in reality all they're interested in is a number, so if you can show the email to them on your phone, they are content with this as they can cross it off the list and then move on. IIRC you can also pay 50p extra and have the ticket delivered to you by text, so no paper ticket is needed at all.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

That should be the other way around, no?

In reality, over the whole network, very few stations have barriers.

Indeed, and those barriers do not check what ticket you have - that is the point of on train ticket inspections. You could have quite easily purchased a 50p concession single to Burley Park from the self service machines in order to get through the barriers (and many people do) and then feign some excuse on the train as to why you haven't got a ticket (as many people do). You could have come from a station outside of Leeds, like, um, Burley Park and just changed platforms never having gone through a barrier. There are a whole plethora of scenarios which may have happened - and that is why you have to show a ticket.

As mentioned coaches and planes are different. Planes you need a boarding card, passport, id etc, and these are checked against a manifesto of people who are booked to travel on that flight. Coaches again operate slightly similarly. I used to work for National Express so do have some experience. With e-tickets and funfares (as they were then) you could potentially loose your ticket. They were not changeable, not refundable etc. But the driver had a list of those tickets allocated to his service, and would check them off on boarding. He would make you wait until departure time until he was sure there was no one else aboard using "your" reference number, then you could travel. But this was a coach which seated around 50 people all getting in one door - not a train seating many hundreds using multiple doors and tickets with or without reference numbers etc. On the coaches if you had a flexible ticket and you lost it you had to buy a new one end of story.

 

[Old Timer]

... i just don't think it should just end there and then if you've lost your ticket. there should be other acceptable ways of demonstrating that you have bought a ticket.

What has that got to do with anything ? No one is disputing you bought the ticket.

The fact is you do not have it and potentially someone else will, and indeed may have used it or sold it on. You cannot prove this was not the case.

I have just proven to you that National Express will not let you travel without paying again, why is East Coast any different ? after all it is you who wanted to make them comparable.

 

[Clyde]

What has that got to do with anything ? No one is disputing you bought the ticket.

The fact is you do not have it and potentially someone else will, and indeed may have used it or sold it on. You cannot prove this was not the case.

it's not very likely that i'd pass it on to someone else. in the vast majority of cases, people who buy tickets intend to use them.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

i think we're both right as a printout of a ticket constitutes as a ticket. in reality all they're interested in is a number, so if you can show the email to them on your phone, they are content with this as they can cross it off the list and then move on. IIRC you can also pay 50p extra and have the ticket delivered to you by text, so no paper ticket is needed at all.

Which ultimately is the crux of the problem. They check you getting in via one door, and cross your reference number off from a list as you get on, thereby ensuring that no body on board the same coach is using the same reference number and that all reference numbers that have boarded are valid for this coach. How exactly do you propose a similar method is introduced for trains?

 

[AlterEgo]

Are you an EC employee?

Quite the opposite!

In actual fact I think I've been quite helpful and given you some constructive advice. However, respectfully you are quite wrong to blame anyone but yourself for this situation.

it's not very likely that i'd pass it on to someone else

Says you.

 

[Old Timer]

i think we're both right as a printout of a ticket constitutes as a ticket. in reality all they're interested in is a number, so if you can show the email to them on your phone, they are content with this as they can cross it off the list and then move on. IIRC you can also pay 50p extra and have the ticket delivered to you by text, so no paper ticket is needed at all.

But access is by ticket chack against name in advance is it not ???

The last time I took some people to the Nat Exp coach station they were required to produce their ticket BEFORE being allowed to go to the gate, and then the ticket was again checked before being allowed to board.

Their tickets are issued against a seat reservation on a specified service so a misused ticket will immediately stand out because two people will be wanting to use the same seat.

Similarly an airline can pick up a stolen ticket presented at checkin, as the person who somehow discovered my credit card details and bought an Africa to Sao Paulo ticket found owhen I tipped off KLM and they had some very nice men with guns meet him at check-in in Schiphol

 

[Clyde]

I have just proven to you that National Express will not let you travel without paying again, why is East Coast any different ? after all it is you who wanted to make them comparable.

Except you haven't, as NE allow you to print out your ticket or show them it on your phone.
East Coast is different cos it doesn't do e-tickets. National Express does.
I hope I don't have to explain this again.

 

[AlterEgo]

Which ultimately is the crux of the problem. They check you getting in via one door, and cross your reference number off from a list as you get on, thereby ensuring that no body on board the same coach is using the same reference number and that all reference numbers that have boarded are valid for this coach. How exactly do you propose a similar method is introduced for trains?

I agree with every word of that.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

it's not very likely that i'd pass it on to someone else. in the vast majority of cases, people who buy tickets intend to use them.

I'll think you'll find that as the railways are so open, that the number of people trying it on with one excuse or another as to why they can't show a valid ticket is higher than you think. I know, I do it every day. And every single day I go to work I am bombarded with multitudes of reasons as to why someone can't produce a valid ticket.

 

[AlterEgo]

East Coast is different cos it doesn't do e-tickets.

It does Print@Home, which is an option you chose not to take advantage of.

I hope I don't have to explain this again.

I hope so too.

 

[Clyde]

But access is by ticket chack against name in advance is it not ???

The last time I took some people to the Nat Exp coach station they were required to produce their ticket BEFORE being allowed to go to the gate, and then the ticket was again checked before being allowed to board.

Their tickets are issued against a seat reservation on a specified service so a misused ticket will immediately stand out because two people will be wanting to use the same seat.

there are no seat reservations as far as i know. you can pay a pound extra to board before everyone else, but i've never seen anyone do that.
you don't need your name, just a number. IIRC the paper list they have to check off is just reference numbers. i could be wrong though or they could have more information with them should there be a problem.

 

[Old Timer]

it's not very likely that i'd pass it on to someone else. in the vast majority of cases, people who buy tickets intend to use them.

Having several years of revenue protection experience which you do not, I can assure you that is a very adolescent comment. The I have lost my ticket/wallet is as old as the hills. The alarm bells ring mightily loud at that point. Unfortunate for the innocent but a matter of experience. The great majority of such claims are false and are used to defend fare evasion attempts.

A compariosn is the person who walks out of the shop without paying and claims to have forgotten. Might well be true but how many shops/Police would let you off with that ?

 

[Clyde]

It does Print@Home, which is an option you chose not to take advantage of.

Really? I wasn't aware of that!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I'm sorry, but I think I was misinformed that this forum was for consumers.

Yes, it is most helpful at giving suitable advice to consumers. Just because the advice you are being given is not to your liking does not make it wrong or unhelpful. A bit like the EC Guard you talk about originally - if we all said how nasty EC was for asking to see a ticket, and that you were sure to instantly get the UFN cancelled on appeal, and that you would never go to court - and then you didn't get it cancelled and you did go to court, I suspect you would be a tad upset at the poor advice you were given. So no one has told porkies, merely what is likely to happen based on the reported facts and everyone's experience of similar situations.

As I have learnt at work a long time ago, the majority of time when people say "your customer service is appalling" (or similar) that translates as "you haven't told me what I wanted to hear" or "you are not letting me get away with it".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

there are no seat reservations as far as i know. you can pay a pound extra to board before everyone else, but i've never seen anyone do that.
you don't need your name, just a number. IIRC the paper list they have to check off is just reference numbers. i could be wrong though or they could have more information with them should there be a problem.

When I worked for them it was just the reference numbers, but that is enough. When you only have 50 people getting on and you can't accommodate standees or people hiding in the toilet, and you are personally checking them on one at a time, it is fairly easy to ensure that the reference number is not used more than once, and that everyone getting on has a valid reference number for that coach.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes, it is most helpful at giving suitable advice to consumers. Just because the advice you are being given is not to your liking does not make it wrong or unhelpful.

That's very true.

I have been on quite a few rail and consumer forums, and I can honestly say that this forum does have the people with the knowledge and will to provide the best advice. Most of the best advice comes from rail staff who take time out not to tell the poster just what he wants to hear, but the facts as they stand, and options for moving forward.

Clyde has received good, factual advice. It may not be ideal, but I guarantee you won't find better advice anywhere else.

 

[Old Timer]

there are no seat reservations as far as i know. you can pay a pound extra to board before everyone else, but i've never seen anyone do that.
you don't need your name, just a number. IIRC the paper list they have to check off is just reference numbers. i could be wrong though or they could have more information with them should there be a problem.

So how do they manage their seats then? Free for all ?

Your ticket gurantees you a seat, therefore there is a reservation system of at least aligning passenger numbers against seats available

 

[Clyde]

Quite the opposite!

In actual fact I think I've been quite helpful and given you some constructive advice. However, respectfully you are quite wrong to blame anyone but yourself for this situation.

I accept that I should not have lost my wallet and I'm grateful for the advice, but there seems to be a tiny bias towards the train companies too and a rather sanctimonious know-it-all attitude, patronising a hapless consumer, who is trying to find a way out of a difficult situation that's been exacerbated by inflexible rules.

 

[Clyde]

So how do they manage their seats then? Free for all ?

Your ticket gurantees you a seat, therefore there is a reservation system of at least aligning passenger numbers against seats available

yep, free for all. it seems to work. i agree it would be impossible on trains though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's very true.

I have been on quite a few rail and consumer forums, and I can honestly say that this forum does have the people with the knowledge and will to provide the best advice. Most of the best advice comes from rail staff who take time out not to tell the poster just what he wants to hear, but the facts as they stand, and options for moving forward.

Clyde has received good, factual advice. It may not be ideal, but I guarantee you won't find better advice anywhere else.

I agree with this, and again I am grateful for the advice. I am just exploring all the angles I can. I can't afford to pay this money, so I need to get out of it somehow or at least pay it at an affordable rate.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Having several years of revenue protection experience which you do not, I can assure you that is a very adolescent comment. The I have lost my ticket/wallet is as old as the hills. The alarm bells ring mightily loud at that point. Unfortunate for the innocent but a matter of experience. The great majority of such claims are false and are used to defend fare evasion attempts.

A compariosn is the person who walks out of the shop without paying and claims to have forgotten. Might well be true but how many shops/Police would let you off with that ?

It might be worth investigating why so many people evade fares, instead of punishing the honest people by having such suspicious forbidding rules and regulations.

 

[Old Timer]

yep, free for all. it seems to work.

And that demonstrates a big question mark over your use of National Express because you can only book if there is a seat available, and to alter your times requires an amendment fee which can exceed to price of a new ticket (from the website).

Unlike East Coast who apparantly are customer unfriendly in your opinion.

To be honest I am away to bed, but there is a saying which goes..."when in a hole stop digging..." as in your case you seem to be using a Komatsu 360 excavator right now.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

yep, free for all. it seems to work. i agree it would be impossible on trains though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I agree with this, and again I am grateful for the advice. I am just exploring all the angles I can. I can't afford to pay this money, so I need to get out of it somehow or at least pay it at an affordable rate.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It might be worth investigating why so many people evade fares, instead of punishing the honest people by having such suspicious forbidding rules and regulations.

The rules are NO different from National Express who indeed from what I read are far harsher.

I suggest you grow up, stop victimising yourself, and learn that "sh*t happens". It is a slautory lesson but it is not the role of others to manage your responsibilities for you.

Take control and accept your own personal responsibilities.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

It might be worth investigating why so many people evade fares, instead of punishing the honest people by having such suspicious forbidding rules and regulations.

The same could be said for almost any law / regulation! (Have you watched Traffic Cops / Night Cops / Police Interceptors for example?).

Why do so many people drive with no insurance?
Why do so many people not pay council tax?
Why do so many people shop lift?
Why do so many people try to avoid paying train fares?

 

[DJ737]

G'day

I have read most of the posts on this topic and sense that "Clyde" is actually getting a bit worked up over nothing more that he has a bill from East Coast.

Instead of arguing the pro & cons of various transport systems, Clyde should offer pay East Coast the money owing, irrespective of if he believes it is right or wrong.

East Coast will not take you to court for offering to pay the outstanding amount, but they probably will if you refuse to pay the outstanding amount.

A carefully worded letter to East Coast accompanied by supporting documentation detailing your current personal circumstances and not moaning about how the rail system works, with an offer to pay say £20 a month should keep this matter out of the courts.

Better still borrow the outstanding amount from family or friends who will probably not be so eager to get the money back and thus give you more time to pay them.

Cheers
DJ737
Melbourne, Australia

PS Good luck at getting a job, I am currently between appointments myself at the moment.

 

[LondonJohn]

Clyde.

Do us a favour.

Buy a jumper from M&S, throw it away and then go back tell them that you have lost it and ask them to give you another free.

When they refuse will you think that unreasonable ?

The above applies to any form of retail outlet, even if you have a receipt.

Will you feel you have been punished ?

Will you write to the newspapers. TV/radio, whatever ?

Can you honestly say that you would expect McDonalds would give you a free meal if you walked in and said here's my receipt, I have lost my big mac meal, now I want another one free ? What is the difference with East Coast ?

It is unfortunate you lost your ticket, it is NOT the fault or responsibility of East Coast.

The "I have lost my wallet/ticket, etc" story is as old as the cheque is in the post story, and is one of the ruses used by serial fare evaders. If I had a pound for everyone that has proferred that story over the years I would be very rich indeed.

East Coast issued you with an Unpaid Fare Notice. This is not a penalty or a fine as you have suggested - as others have correctly pointed out to you that is not.

I would recommend you take DaveNewcastle's advice as being good, writing in an emotional way and using the approach you demonstrate on here is neither factual nor correct and placing yourself as the being victimised is certainly not the way to go.

I am dismayed at the tone of some of the comments on this thread(and others) but particularly this one.

It seems the OP has found himself in quite a distressing situation through no fault of his own. It is clear that he is not a regular traveller who knows the quirks or anomolies of the system and when presented by a situation unfamiliar to himself what he should have done retrospectively. Indeed he was not unreasonably reassured by a member of staff onboard. I can understand why he feels genuinely aggrieved even if he has lost the ticket afterall he didn't do it on purpose.

It is clear from what he is telling us (and I have no reason to doubt him) that he is telling the truth. He appears not to be defrauding the railway although it is indeed true that we don't know for sure the ticket wasn't used by a third party there is no need to

Whilst I appreciate some individuals have given positive and constructive advice on here and backed it up others have been condescending and down right rude which there is no need for.

With the numerous fare dodgers around and the rogue RPIs "victimising" passengers I am do wish a few people brought cases like this and the one where the guy realised he was on the wrong train as it was pulling away to the attention of the media and the public as whilst strictly to the terms and conditions of the contract they are right the system doesn't seem to be on the side of people making genuine mistakes or victims of such misfortune.

Of course, I am sure all the railway workers on here spelling it out have never ever made any mistake that impacted on a passenger at all have they ?

I hope that the OP gets help with his letter to EC trains and that they look at it sympatherically to resolve the matter and wish them the best in their new life in London in these tough economic times.

 

[Bedpan]

And, further to DJ737's advice, proof that he really did lose his wallet, such as correspondence from bank when they sent him new credit/debit cards with new card numbers etc.


BTW I entirely agree with London John's comments - an excellent post - although it is only a minority of the posters on this thread that have adopted an unnecessarily patronising tone.

 

[bnm]

I accept that I should not have lost my wallet and I'm grateful for the advice, but there seems to be a tiny bias towards the train companies too and a rather sanctimonious know-it-all attitude, patronising a hapless consumer, who is trying to find a way out of a difficult situation that's been exacerbated by inflexible rules.

You are right on those points Clyde. Those traits do tend to come out on threads such as this where someone has fallen foul of revenue protection rules on the railway.

Too many times also we see pointless comparisons to other modes of transport when in reality there is no real comparison. The rail network is open. Coach and air networks are closed. There's often also pointless comparison to the retail sector with, for example, silly comments about losing a meal in McDonald's, such as seen in this thread.

There is another thread currently running where a passenger has lost a season ticket. She too has been subjected to a sanctimonious holier-than-thou attitude from some forum members.

A lot of new members come to this forum (particularly this board - Fares, Tickets & Routes) looking for advice after falling foul of the railway's rules and regulations. Most have made a genuine mistake or been a victim of circumstance. All too often they have to experience a lack of empathy toward their situation, judgement on their character or just plain rudeness. All too often those with a far greater knowledge of the often arcane world of UK rail use that knowledge in a condescending way when responding to someone who isn't as well versed in the intricacies of the contract between passenger and train operator.

In fairness though Clyde you've also been given some good advice about how to proceed, it's just a shame you've had to wade through a lot of pointless guff pointing out your supposed failings.

 

[Ferret]

bnm, I couldn't disagree more! Time and time again, the same names give their time to advise people who are in a bad situation. They don't have to - and this forum would be a poorer place without them!

Clyde - the advice you've been given is spot on. The starting position for all matters to do with fares and ticketing issues is to refer to the conditions of carriage - the contract you and East Coast entered into when you bought your ticket. That makes it quite clear that if you lose your ticket, you are required to purchase a new one. This isn't TOC-bias, but more the reality of the situation.

That's not to say that it's without hope though. If you can offer East Coast proof that you lost you wallet - correspondance with the bank, DVLA, or whatever else you lost at the same time, they might (at their discretion) waive the UFN, assuming you speak nicely with them! Good luck!