Merseyrail Expansion

[CaramellDansen]

I was talking about extending Merseyrail using battery power that are not due for wires in the next decade e.g. Wrexham. Through services would take a lot of cars off the M53.
Same with extending the Kirkby/Headbolt Lane branch through to Wigan and improving Upholland as a interchange for Skem.
The environmental impact of those is going to help much more than focusing on investment in conversion to OHLE.

You're arguing against no-one. The battery trains already exist. I'm not taking them away. Doing staged OLE conversion now will not stop battery trains somehow.
What's stopping the Wigan and Upholland extensions from being wired, anyway? Just have a power changeover.

 

[AlastairFraser]

What's stopping the Wigan and Upholland extensions from being wired, anyway? Just have a power changeover.

Bletchleyite mentioned in post #276 that you cannot have both battery and OHLE capability due to the design of the units - it's one or the other. You could segregate some units to a battery/3rd rail route, but Merseytravel are against this because it causes issues with battery wear IIRC.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I disagree. Further devolution is going to mean local "metro mayors" have additional tax raising powers, and a rolling extension program with the profits from extensions covering operating costs could well be feasible.

As soon as any future mayoral candidate announces in their pre-mayoral election manifesto that he/she is going to introduce new local tax rises on top of what the public pay in their council tax, I am sure that such a statement would be received by the locally affected electorate with angst and be worth its weight in gold to other candidates who are standing and make no such promises.

 

[AlastairFraser]

As soon as any future mayoral candidate announces in their pre-mayoral election manifesto that he/she is going to introduce new local tax rises on top of what the public pay in their council tax, I am sure that such a statement would be received by the locally affected electorate with angst and be worth its weight in gold to other candidates who are standing and make no such promises.

While I'm sure that would apply in most places and you'd be quite right, the likely successful candidate in the Liverpool City Region is in a near unassailable condition politically. It would be very difficult to dislodge the dominant party candidate, unless an overt commitment was made to either major Merseyside football team!

 

[Djgr]

While I'm sure that would apply in most places and you'd be quite right, the likely successful candidate in the Liverpool City Region is in a near unassailable condition politically. It would be very difficult to dislodge the dominant party candidate, unless an overt commitment was made to either major Merseyside football team!

A timely reminder that in the last May Liverpool City Council elections the Tory % of the vote was 1.7%. (I had to double check because this was even lower than I remembered!)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A timely reminder that in the last May Liverpool City Council elections the Tory % of the vote was 1.7%. (I had to double check because this was even lower than I remembered!)

In recent years, the major players have been Labour and the Lib-Dems in those City Council elections.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

A timely reminder that in the last May Liverpool City Council elections the Tory % of the vote was 1.7%. (I had to double check because this was even lower than I remembered!)

In recent years, the major players have been Labour and the Lib-Dems in those City Council elections.

But do bear in mind that the election is for the city region i.e. Merseyside plus Halton - so quite a lot larger than the City Council area. Wikipedia says (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Liverpool_City_Region_mayoral_election) that at the last mayoral election Mr Rotheram (Lab) got 58.3% of the vote (rather supporting the point being made): the candidate who came second was the Conservative with 19.6% (rather failing to support the point).

 

[CaramellDansen]

You could segregate some units to a battery/3rd rail route, but Merseytravel are against this because it causes issues with battery wear IIRC.

We're supposed to trust batteries to do all of our extensions, but they can barely handle Headbolt Lane?? And (according to Wikipedia) they only last 8 years?!?!
You couldn't make a better argument for OLE over batteries if you tried. Thank you!

 

[Bletchleyite]

We're supposed to trust batteries to do all of our extensions, but they can barely handle Headbolt Lane?? And (according to Wikipedia) they only last 8 years?!?!
You couldn't make a better argument for OLE over batteries if you tried. Thank you!

Headbolt should be third rail. It's ridiculous they haven't been allowed such a short fully segregated (no level crossings) extension, they could even have had added mitigation by shoving it in a fibreglass trough.

Preston should probably be OHLE if that happens, though - it could probably be spurred off the WCML without any extra substations (similar length to Windermere which definitely could). I do however question the wisdom of Preston unless it came with massive housing development and a few new stations, as it's really very rural north of Burscough. To me reinstating the curves and running Merseyrail to Burscough Bridge with the Ormskirk-Preston becoming a Southport-Preston (could be done using the 2 units it presently uses) taking in the halts to allow a more consistent pattern on the Manchesters would bring far more connectivity benefits than running unsuitable urban units without toilets on a rural branch line. In that case I'd favour third rail or battery.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Headbolt should be third rail. It's ridiculous they haven't been allowed such a short fully segregated (no level crossings) extension, they could even have had added mitigation by shoving it in a fibreglass troug

Who was it who imposed the 3rd rail embargo on the short line extension to Headbolt Lane? Is there anywhere where that particular policy appears in print that can be publically accessed?

 

[AlastairFraser]

A timely reminder that in the last May Liverpool City Council elections the Tory % of the vote was 1.7%. (I had to double check because this was even lower than I remembered!)

Yes, hence my point that raising taxes wouldn't materially affect the incumbent Mayor's position at all.

We're supposed to trust batteries to do all of our extensions, but they can barely handle Headbolt Lane?? And (according to Wikipedia) they only last 8 years?!?!
You couldn't make a better argument for OLE over batteries if you tried. Thank you!

The current issues are just teething problems, they'll be resolved soon. And 8 years I think is a Conservative estimate, new generations of batteries will last significantly longer.

 

[Djgr]

But do bear in mind that the election is for the city region i.e. Merseyside plus Halton - so quite a lot larger than the City Council area. Wikipedia says (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Liverpool_City_Region_mayoral_election) that at the last mayoral election Mr Rotheram (Lab) got 58.3% of the vote (rather supporting the point being made): the candidate who came second was the Conservative with 19.6% (rather failing to support the point).

It seems unlikely that Conservatives will magically more than double the size of their vote!!!

 

[CaramellDansen]

I do however question the wisdom of Preston unless it came with massive housing development and a few new stations, as it's really very rural north of Burscough. To me reinstating the curves and running Merseyrail to Burscough Bridge with the Ormskirk-Preston becoming a Southport-Preston (could be done using the 2 units it presently uses) taking in the halts to allow a more consistent pattern on the Manchesters would bring far more connectivity benefits than running unsuitable urban units without toilets on a rural branch line. In that case I'd favour third rail or battery.

I hope you don't mind me taking inspiration from your idea:
Extend Merseyrail to Burscough Junction with batteries (for now.)
Like you said, send a service from Southport to Preston via Burscough N-E curve (adding a station at Midge Hall with a passing loop for the token exchange, why not?) allowing Southport/Preston travellers to avoid the main line *and* access Merseyrail!
Extend Merseyrail to Skem via Rainford with OLE (it's so much further than the relatively minor Ormskirk to Rainford Jn distance) and terminate the Wigan service at Rainford.
Then, OLE could be slowly extended back towards Town if the 3rd rail decision is finalised (i.e. never to come back, despite some people's wishes)... which I'm certain is already the case today.

taking in the halts

What do you mean by this?

running Merseyrail to Burscough Bridge

Would this really happen? Unless there were platform(s) on the S-W curve, Merseyrail services would block the line; and the cheaper option of terminating at Burscough Jn then telling people to walk would almost certainly be picked.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I hope you don't mind me taking inspiration from your idea:
Extend Merseyrail to Burscough Junction with batteries (for now.)
Like you said, send a service from Southport to Preston via Burscough N-E curve (adding a station at Midge Hall with a passing loop for the token exchange, why not?) allowing Southport/Preston travellers to avoid the main line *and* access Merseyrail

Not a bad idea, but you'd need to send Merseyrail to Burscough Bridge - it's too far to be a viable OSI from Burscough Junction.

The plan wouldn't stand up economically just for Southport to Preston because there's a direct express bus (X2) every hour.

Also you'd need to build a new bay to the east of the road bridge or somewhere else in the vicinity, to cater for the Merseyrail service and keep it off the mainline.
Otherwise you have to path around the Southport to Preston, the Southport to Man Oxford Rd, and the Southport to Stalybridge.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It seems unlikely that Conservatives will magically more than double the size of their vote!!!

Will the same apply to the Lib Dems on the council?

 

[AlastairFraser]

Will the same apply to the Lib Dems on the council?

The local indies could gain more on LCC, but it isn't Liverpool City Council making the decisions.
The Labour advantage on Sefton, Knowsley, Wirral, St Helens and Halton councils (the other member districts of Liverpool City Region) will outweigh any competitor based in Liverpool itself.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The local indies could gain more on LCC, but it isn't Liverpool City Council making the decisions.
The Labour advantage on Sefton, Knowsley, Wirral, St Helens and Halton councils (the other member districts of Liverpool City Region) will outweigh any competitor based in Liverpool itself.

Why am I suddenly reminded of the old adage about the tail wagging the dog?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What do you mean by this?

Calling at New Lane and Bescar Lane, which would allow the Manchesters to miss them and thus be fully clockface (give or take a few a day for Hoscar).

Would this really happen? Unless there were platform(s) on the S-W curve, Merseyrail services would block the line; and the cheaper option of terminating at Burscough Jn then telling people to walk would almost certainly be picked.

Nobody will walk. This is rich, leafy West Lancashire - they'll just carry on driving the Rangie or the Jag to Burscough Bridge if that's the case.

There is room to rebuild the station to add a bay on the south side, you'd just lose the car park (which could go elsewhere).

I have wondered about the idea of replacing Bridge with a new station where the lines cross (which isn't that far out of town) - this could be a West Lancashire Parkway, Tamworth style, with a decent car park and housing development around it. However I am really not convinced about using 777s on a journey of well over an hour - they just aren't suitable - and that option doesn't, unlike the Curves option, provide a direct Preston to Southport service.

Also you'd need to build a new bay to the east of the road bridge or somewhere else in the vicinity, to cater for the Merseyrail service and keep it off the mainline.
Otherwise you have to path around the Southport to Preston, the Southport to Man Oxford Rd, and the Southport to Stalybridge.

I'm not sure it being on the Southport line for all of thirty seconds while it popped round to a bay on the south side would be a major issue to be honest. It'd only be like Hunts Cross.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

N obody will walk. This is rich, leafy West Lancashire - they'll just carry on driving the Rangie or the Jag to Burscough Bridge if that's the case.

Why does the term "leafy" always seem attached to certain of the more affluent areas (Cheshire East in particular is still referred to as such these days). Since the days of myriads of domestic coal fires are now long past, less affluent areas these days are well endowed with trees and shrubs of all varieties.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Why am I suddenly reminded of the old adage about the tail wagging the dog?

Some of those areas are really Liverpool suburbs, rather than distinct parts of Merseyside, to be fair.

However I am really not convinced about using 777s on a journey of well over an hour - they just aren't suitable

An hour - how long would you expect Ormskirk to the proposed West Lancs Parkway to take, because it's only 34 minutes Ormskirk to Liv Central.
Unless you're talking about Liverpool to Southport via Burscough.

Agreed with your idea in general as an interim step though, the only thing I'd say is that you'd probably need to use a 158, instead of a 150/156, because you want it to take less time than the direct X2 bus, and keep to the tight path on the WCML.

 

[Bletchleyite]

An hour - how long would you expect Ormskirk to the proposed West Lancs Parkway to take, because it's only 34 minutes Ormskirk to Liv Central.

I'm referring to the idea of operating a through service from Liverpool to Preston which would be about 1h10mins. I don't see much benefit in doing the West Lancashire Parkway "cross" option without a through service, if you're going to terminate Merseyrail at Burscough, it'd be better to do it at Bridge.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I'm not sure it being on the Southport line for all of thirty seconds while it popped round to a bay on the south side would be a major issue to be honest. It'd only be like Hunts Cross.

Yes with a bay, stabling it on the Southport line between runs would be an issue without one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes with a bay, stabling it on the Southport line between runs would be an issue without one.

There's space for an 8 car bay south of the station, you'd have to move the Southport bound platform along to allow for a crossover and lose the car park, that's all. That can be put elsewhere.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I'm referring to the idea of operating a through service from Liverpool to Preston which would be about 1h10mins.

Ah, yes.
That would be a later stage, although I'm sure you could knock it down to 1hr with a through service.

There's space for an 8 car bay south of the station, you'd have to move the Southport bound platform along to allow for a crossover and lose the car park, that's all. That can be put elsewhere.

Agreed.
The rail car park is tiny anyway, you could stick a deck on the adjacent Tesco car park and allow rail users to park there relatively easily.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There's space for an 8 car bay south of the station, you'd have to move the Southport bound platform along to allow for a crossover and lose the car park, that's all. That can be put elsewhere.

What financial cost did you have in mind to allow those matters above to take place?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What financial cost did you have in mind to allow those matters above to take place?

Probably considerably less than the cost of relaying the Curves and resignalling required.

 

[CaramellDansen]

However I am really not convinced about using 777s on a journey of well over an hour - they just aren't suitable - and that option doesn't, unlike the Curves option, provide a direct Preston to Southport service.

Agreed. I think the Preston to Southport route is a great idea. Killing two birds with one stone; getting people from Preston onto the Merseyrail network AND getting people from Preston to Southport (and visa versa).

I have wondered about the idea of replacing Bridge with a new station where the lines cross (which isn't that far out of town) - this could be a West Lancashire Parkway, Tamworth style

If we're all in on a new station and Merseyrail stopping at Burscough Bridge, why not kill 4 platforms with 1 station?
Then, both the Preston services and the Merseyrail services won't block the line. Food for thought!


Also, if Merseyrail services stop at Bridge, would it be wise to move Junction to somewhere near Square Lane, so more of Burscough gets coverage? (arguably including the industrial area)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also, if Merseyrail services stop at Bridge, would it be wise to move Junction to somewhere near Square Lane, so more of Burscough gets coverage? (arguably including the industrial area)

I'd not move Junction, rather I'd build Mill Dam Lane as was proposed in the 70s (which is now surrounded by housing so plenty of possible custom).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Probably considerably less than the cost of relaying the Curves and resignalling required.

Well since Network Rail's seemingly well-used costing formulae of "Think of a number, triple it, then add three "0"'s at the end" would be brought into play. the mind boggles at what figure they would attach to such works.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Well since Network Rail's seemingly well-used costing formulae of "Think of a number, triple it, then add three "0"'s at the end" would be brought into play. the mind boggles at what figure they would attach to such works.

At least most of the land is intact and railway owned here.