Merseyrail Prosecution - Disabled Card

[fishfinger893]

Hello,

I am autistic with high support needs and have gone on three train journeys so far without my mother to support me, 1 to Manchester and 2 to Liverpool, both from Chester and each time I have done the exact same thing. I believed that I had done the correct thing but I have apparently done something wrong (although I am still not clear on what that is).

Each time I have purchased two tickets for my sister and I, one adult and one child (she is 15), then I have used my disability card, I thought I had used this correctly since the first two train journeys our tickets had been inspected multiple times and the ticket inspectors had no issues with them, so I thought I had done everything correctly.

This morning I did the same thing, but when I was asked by a ticket inspector to show the tickets he told me that my ticket was valid but my sisters wasn't, but since I had paid for it I would be the one getting fined. He told me that my sister would also need a disabled card, which I was very confused about since the disabled card was only for me. He asked me a lot of questions which I found very confusing and felt as if he was ignoring my full answers (Asking me along the lines of "Do you understand that using an invalid ticket is illegal?" I said yes but I didnt think this was invalid, he only seemed to take notice of the yes, nodding and slightly smirking as soon as he heard a "yes"). His tone was also very condescending and my sister pointed that out after too, he was talking to me like a child despite knowing my age (I am 20). Also at the end he then put his fist out and fist bumped me (as if he hadn't just gave me a huge fine...) and told me he just wanted to be fair.

I am very very confused on what I did wrong and it has made me super worried and stressed out, I've put in the website and notice number that I got on the receipt and it says:

Notice Type: Prosecution (MG11)

Notice Number: MRXXXXXXX [Redacted just in case]

Issue Date: 27/04/2024 09:34

Station From: Chester

Station To: Liverpool Central

Station At: Hooton
Penalty Amount: £125.00

Admin Amount: £0.00

Amount Paid: £0.00

Amount Due: £125.00

I don't know what to do, he said that I should get a letter in the post in a couple weeks, so do I pay the money now? Will this give me a criminal record? I have been talking to my mum and her boyfriend and her boyfriend has been telling me to just ignore it and don't pay it but I'm worried that that will make it worse. I didn't intentionally do anything wrong and it would be nice for someone to explain what I did and what I should do now. Thank you.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Can you tell us exactly what tickets you held, from where to where, cost, and what discounts applied to each ticket. If you still have them then it would be very helpful to upload them.

 

[methecooldude]

I've just done a cursory look on Trainline, doing 1 adult and 1 child with a Disabled Railcard does not apply the discount to the child ticket, as is correct. That makes me wonder what happened here, my only guess is that for some unfathomable reason, the Disabled Railcard use was printed on the child ticket in error. As Brissle Girl requested, we really need to see the tickets you purchased

I have been talking to my mum and her boyfriend and her boyfriend has been telling me to just ignore it and don't pay it but I'm worried that that will make it worse.

You are correct to ignore the 'advice' by your mothers boyfriend. You will need to engage with the railway, but you will certainly get helpful advice here

 

[AlterEgo]

Have you put down on the booking site that your sister is the holder of a Child Disabled Railcard? You can’t discount child tickets with a regular Disabled Railcard as the second person discount is for adult companions.

 

[fishfinger893]

I didn't book online or anything, I just used the ticket machines that are inside the train station, it was from Chester to Liverpool, I pressed 1 adult, 1 child then added disabled persons railcard, it was £10.10 total. I never added a disabled childs railcard or anything, just mine. I did also buy another ticket for my sister for the way back because I got told she couldnt use the original one.

 

[methecooldude]

Yea, that's a printing error by the TVM, and a misunderstanding by the inspector. £4.35 is the public child rate with no railcard, and the adult ticket is fine as well

This should be easy to solve. Keep hold of those tickets (or that picture). When you get the letter, reply with a copy of the tickets saying that the fare paid is correct.

I would also contact Merseyrail customer service to seek a refund on the extra ticket you brought that wasn't needed

There shouldn't be any need, but words of advice for your next journey like this: Do the adult ticket and child ticket transaction separately, so you don't have that problem again.

Rest assured fishfinger893, you've done everything correctly

Just for completion, and to check it was done correctly, can you upload a picture of the receipt you got from the inspector please?

 

[gray1404]

The person that merseyrail clearly does not understand that a disabled person's rail card covers the railcard holder and another person traveling with them. In this case it is a moot point as it was a child on a child-rated ticket but the inspectors comment that the other person also needed a rail card exposes the extent of the problem.

This is a very serious issue as this is a fundamental principle that the disabled person's railcard covers two people and this clearly is not known by the member of staff.

Also the fact that he has gone and reported for prosecution a holder of a valid ticket on the basis that they paid for it makes the whole thing nil and void.

 

[methecooldude]

The person that merseyrail clearly does not understand that a disabled person's rail card covers the railcard holder and another person traveling with them. In this case it is a moot point as it was a child on a child-rated ticket but the inspectors comment that the other person also needed a rail card exposes the extent of the problem.

This is a very serious issue as this is a fundamental principle that the disabled person's railcard covers two people and this clearly is not known by the member of staff.

Not quite, DSBs do not apply to child rate tickets. That would be the case if it was 2 adults.

The TVM should not have printed 'with Disabled Persons Railcard' on the child ticket

 

[LowLevel]

Yea, that's a printing error by the TVM, and a misunderstanding by the inspector. £4.35 is the public child rate with no railcard, and the adult ticket is fine as well

This should be easy to solve. Keep hold of those tickets (or that picture). When you get the letter, reply with a copy of the tickets saying that the fare paid is correct.

I would also contact Merseyrail customer service to seek a refund on the extra ticket you brought that wasn't needed

There shouldn't be any need, but words of advice for your next journey like this: Do the adult ticket and child ticket transaction separately, so you don't have that problem again.

Rest assured fishfinger893, you've done everything correctly

Just for completion, and to check it was done correctly, can you upload a picture of the receipt you got from the inspector please?

It's not a printing error but it does seem to be a misunderstanding on the part of the inspector.

To explain - the disabled child rate but not discounted beyond normal child fare ticket is issued as such to validate the tickets of a child aged disabled railcard holder and that of an adult aged companion who is entitled to a discounted fare, which is basically the reason for a child aged disabled railcard holder to have one.

The discount code doesn't need to be applied to an adult holding the railcard taking a child companion along but doesn't do anything to make said ticket invalid.

Hopefully this will be sorted swiftly by Merseyrail.

 

[gray1404]

The point I am making is that the staff member was taking the view incorrectly that a disabled person's rail card can only cover one person. He said that in order for the sisters ticket to be valid she would need her own separate disabled persons railcard and this is not the case.

You can guarantee if it had to have been 2 adults he would have been saying that two rail cards would have been required and the disabled Railcard only covers the railcard holder.

Also he had no right to take the details of a passenger and report for prosecution somebody who he already admitted held a valid ticket on the basis that they paid for thr ticket of the other passenger.

 

[fishfinger893]

Yea, that's a printing error by the TVM, and a misunderstanding by the inspector. £4.35 is the public child rate with no railcard, and the adult ticket is fine as well

This should be easy to solve. Keep hold of those tickets (or that picture). When you get the letter, reply with a copy of the tickets saying that the fare paid is correct.

I would also contact Merseyrail customer service to seek a refund on the extra ticket you brought that wasn't needed

There shouldn't be any need, but words of advice for your next journey like this: Do the adult ticket and child ticket transaction separately, so you don't have that problem again.

Rest assured fishfinger893, you've done everything correctly

Just for completion, and to check it was done correctly, can you upload a picture of the receipt you got from the inspector please?

Thank you, this has helped a lot Just wondering, would it be worth emailing them and complaining or should I just wait for the letter to arrive? This has never happened to me before so I'm quite nervous about it. Also here is the receipt (censored the number and my name just in case)

 

[methecooldude]

Just wondering, would it be worth emailing them and complaining or should I just wait for the letter to arrive?

That's a tricky one, others may disagree and that's fine, however:

In relation to the notice, I would wait for the letter

In relation to the extra un-needed ticket purchased, I would complain to customer service

 

[gray1404]

I think your complaint to customer service and your response to the letter they send you are going to be very similar. So we can start by helping you with a draft.

The main essence of the complaint is:
1. The staff member failing to accept that the disabled persons railcard covers the railcard holder and one other person travelling with them and their insistance that it only covers the railcard holder.
2. Demanding and obtaining the details, without lawful basis, of a passenger who held a valid ticket rather then the passenger they were claiming (incorrectly) didn't hold a valid ticket.

I would also request copies of the body cam footage from both the enforcement officers. This will be very useful evidence.

I would say the printing error is for Transport for Wales to sort out and mentioning this would only cause confusion with Merseyrail.

 

[LowLevel]

I think your complaint to customer service and your response to the letter they send you are going to be very similar. So we can start by helping you with a draft.

The main essence of the complaint is:
1. The staff member failing to accept that the disabled persons railcard covers the railcard holder and one other person travelling with them and their insistance that it only covers the railcard holder.
2. Demanding and obtaining the details, without lawful basis, of a passenger who held a valid ticket rather then the passenger they were claiming (incorrectly) didn't hold a valid ticket.

I would also request copies of the body cam footage from both the enforcement officers. This will be very useful evidence.

I would say the printing error is for Transport for Wales to sort out and mentioning this would only cause confusion with Merseyrail.

It's not a printing error, as I explained above, and referring to it as such would indeed only complicate matters. It is solely an error on the part of the member of staff that needs addressing.

Child Disabled tickets printing in that fashion without a reduction in fare is totally intentional, every Ticket Issuing System I've ever used has done it. It was specifically covered in my retail training.

 

[Snow1964]

The Penalty notice issued by (the apparently wrong) Inspector A004 is also very badly worded.

As explained above, the Op has paid correct fare and has valid tickets. It says if you wish to settle this matter before legal proceedings then either go onto a payment link or ring a phone number.

It implies that waiting for a letter and replying is not an option.

The reality is a railway official has lied to a customer, causing them to buy an extra return ticket. Really Merseyrail should be voluntarily repaying double for all the trouble it has caused the Op.

It is worth making formal complaint to customer services, and expecting them to resolve it (as it's Merseyrail error) rather than having to write to customer services AND reply to the letter. But sadly I wouldn't trust railway staff to be diligent and sort it for you, so almost certainty going to have to also reply to penalty letter.

 

[robbeech]

You can guarantee if it had to have been 2 adults he would have been saying that two rail cards would have been required and the disabled Railcard only covers the railcard holder.

I’m inclined to agree, sadly.

Infact I’d be so sure of it (and simultaneously so happy to be proved wrong) that if anyone in the area with this railcard wishes to try a similarly priced pair of tickets with an adult companion then I’d be happy to fund it.

 

[AlterEgo]

Also he had no right to take the details of a passenger and report for prosecution somebody who he already admitted held a valid ticket on the basis that they paid for thr ticket of the other passenger.

Agreed. This should also go into the complaint. It was unlawful of the inspector to ask for the OP’s details as by their own admission it wasn’t the OP with what they thought was an irregular ticket.

 

[185]

It's obvious, adult fare third off 5 quid thus full fare 8 quid thus child fare 4 quid. Everyone checking tickets does an OPC ticket selling (ie maths) test unless scrounging Merseyrail have chosen to bypass that test too.

These daily mistakes by Merseyrail & shoddy contractor Carlisle Plc are becoming tiresome. Mayor Steven Rotheram has repeatedly failed to challenge Merseyrail leaving a handful of MPs to do his work for him.

Possibly off topic but I feel this case would be ideal for a settlement, perhaps several hundred pounds... which the delinquent, unprofessional joke of an operator should be paying to the customer. One of these genuine victims really should get a solicitor on them.

Merseyrail brings the rest of the railway into dispute with these wrongful prosecutions.

 

[Hadders]

We have established that the inpsector was wrong to issue the report. We now need to concentrate on getting the matter withdrawn.

The OP has not been issued with a Penalty Fare. They've been reported for prosecution, but looking at the notice it appears that they have been given the opportunity to pay an out of court settlement. There is no right of appeal other than to take the matter to court, however questions or queries can be emailed to [email protected].

Understanding Revenue Protection

Merseyrail is committed to reducing the level of revenue loss due to fare evasion.

www.merseyrail.org

Can I appeal?
If you feel that you did not commit an offence, then you may plead your case to the magistrates on the day that you are summonsed to court. If you have any further questions, or require any more information, please email us at [email protected]

I think there's a good chance of getting this withdrawn but a suitably worded email needs to be sent to Merseyrail's enoforcement team.

Can forum members assist with suitable wording for the email as it is impartant that what gets sent is right.

Once the matter has been resolved then I suggest a complaint is made to customer services about the staff member.

 

[gray1404]

If Merseyrail do not relent in this then this needs taking up with your MP. It is a fundamental principle of the Disabled Persons Railcard since it's introduction in 1981 that it covers upto 2 people.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m inclined to agree, sadly.

Infact I’d be so sure of it (and simultaneously so happy to be proved wrong) that if anyone in the area with this railcard wishes to try a similarly priced pair of tickets with an adult companion then I’d be happy to fund it.

My Dad has a DSB and does it all the time on Merseyrail. This is just one idiot inspector (another one - Carlisle really should be banned from rail work entirely).

 

[Titfield]

IMHO the letters need to be different.

Letter 1 to the prosecutions unit needs to be along the lines of:

Dear XXXX

I request that MG11 (insert number) be withdrawn on the grounds that I presented valid tickets for myself and travelling companion.

The tickets I presented (see attachment) were valid for travel as the correct fare had been paid and the appropriate railcard for the adult ticket held (see attachment).

Ticket 1. Adult Ticket Day Return (insert details).

Ticket 2. Under 16 Year Old Day Return (insert details).

I look forward to receiving confirmation that the MG11 has been withdrawn.

Thank you.

Yours (as appropriate).

I have not included any speculation as to how or why the ticket inspector made the mistake as it does not assist in getting the MG 11 withdrawn. The factual basis for the withdrawal is that the correct fare was paid with a valid railcard.

Letter 2

Dear (Customer Relations Department).

I wish to complain that I was wrongly issued with an MG 11 (insert reference) when I was travelling with my companion on Saturday 27th April 2024.

I have written to the Prosecutions department separately seeking withdrawal of the MG11. The issue I wish to raise with the customer relations department is the way in which the MG11 was issued and that I was required (wrongly) to purchase a new ticket for my travelling companion. I seek reimbursal of the cost of that ticket.

Insert details of tickets as above.

Include detail of additional ticket purchased.

The ticket inspector seemed to be under the impression that my companion needed a disabled railcard of their own when in fact no railcard was required as they are a child and the correct child fare was paid. The manner and tone of the ticket inspector was condescending and unjustified in the circumstances. He was overbearing and bombarded me with questions without allowing me time to respond. When I did respond he was not prepared to listen to my explanation that the tickets were indeed valid. The entire encounter has left me somewhat shaken notwithstanding that I have wrongly been issued with an MG11 which I now have to respond to so that it will be withdrawn.

I look forward to receiving an apology and reimbursal of the cost of the additional ticket purchased.

Yours (as appropriate).

 

[AlterEgo]

The OP should actually be looking for more than just their money back and the threat of prosecution being withdrawn. Another one for the papers and your MP, and an invitation to settle for a few hundred pounds I think.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The OP should actually be looking for more than just their money back and the threat of prosecution being withdrawn. Another one for the papers and your MP, and an invitation to settle for a few hundred pounds I think.

While I agree that Merseyrail have behaved appallingly, is asking the OP to complain at this point the best advice? It seems to me that the important thing is to get the threat of prosecution (and so the linked alternative of paying £125 to avoid prosecution) withdrawn.

If I am right on that, @Titfield 's model letter seems a good place to start - but I wonder if it should go into rather more detail of why no prosecution should go ahead. I can think of at least three grounds;

1) No offence was committed: the child ticket shows the right fare and is clearly an unreduced ticket to be used by a child travelling with a Disabled Railcard holder: the child was entitled to travel on the ticket
2) If the child ticket was in fact not valid, then the wrong person has been reported for prosecution: there's nothing in the railway conditions of travel, railway legislation on the Merseyrail byelaws that forbids the purchase of an invalid ticket. There's no dispute that the OP was travelling on a valid ticket, so he cannot be liable for the (claimed) invalid travel of his sister
3) In any event, there is no loss to the railway in that the correct amount of fare has been paid. It is hard to see how it is a good use of scarce court time to bring a prosecution when there is no material harm to the purported victim (i.e. the railway).

 

[Titfield]

While I agree that Merseyrail have behaved appallingly, is asking the OP to complain at this point the best advice? It seems to me that the important thing is to get the threat of prosecution (and so the linked alternative of paying £125 to avoid prosecution) withdrawn.

If I am right on that, @Titfield 's model letter seems a good place to start - but I wonder if it should go into rather more detail of why no prosecution should go ahead. I can think of at least three grounds;

1) No offence was committed: the child ticket shows the right fare and is clearly an unreduced ticket to be used by a child travelling with a Disabled Railcard holder: the child was entitled to travel on the ticket
2) If the child ticket was in fact not valid, then the wrong person has been reported for prosecution: there's nothing in the railway conditions of travel, railway legislation on the Merseyrail byelaws that forbids the purchase of an invalid ticket. There's no dispute that the OP was travelling on a valid ticket, so he cannot be liable for the (claimed) invalid travel of his sister
3) In any event, there is no loss to the railway in that the correct amount of fare has been paid. It is hard to see how it is a good use of scarce court time to bring a prosecution when there is no material harm to the purported victim (i.e. the railway).

I agree more detail could be put into the OPs letter to ask for the MG11 to be withdrawn.

I took the view that as simple as letter as possible should be submitted first. If they (the prosecutions department) reject that approach then go back with more detail as per @Fawkes Cat suggestions. The Prosecutions Department may of course themselves ask for more details which could be provided.

I am hoping that the MG11 would be withdrawn first and then the OP could submit a complaint of they still have appetite for that.

Whilst I agree that Merseyrail appear to have acted badly, given how they are already perceived by the local press, MPs etc I didnt think that the OPs complaint would add significantly to that and indeed he may not wish to have his name published or become involved in an even more stressful process.

 

[Hadders]

I think the suggested letter requesting withdrawal of the MG11 needs a bit more detail. The position needs spelling out very clearly to Merseyrail, as we know they lack the most basic understanding.

I think we should concentrate on getting the MG11 withdrawn, and once this is achieved look at a complaint about the actions of the members of staff.

 

[Titfield]

I think the suggested letter requesting withdrawal of the MG11 needs a bit more detail. The position needs spelling out very clearly to Merseyrail, as we know they lack the most basic understanding.

I think we should concentrate on getting the MG11 withdrawn, and once this is achieved look at a complaint about the actions of the members of staff.

For the OPs benefit, I am just wondering what more detail can be proved given that the tickets (images to be attached to the email) and railcard (image required to be added) clearly contradict the statement made on the MG11 form.

The holding of the disabled railcard (with image attached) would quite clearly prove that a valid railcard was held.

Perhaps the OP could add confirmation in his letter that the tickets were purchased from the TVM. the timestamp on the tickets clearly showing they had been bought prior to departure. (and of course the format of the ticket etc does this anyway.

I have to say that the Disabled Railcards Terms and Conditions re children travelling with a Disabled Railcard holder are silent.

Using your Railcard - Disabled Persons Railcard

www.disabledpersons-railcard.co.uk

Railcard Terms & Conditions - Disabled Persons Railcard

www.disabledpersons-railcard.co.uk

The danger in referencing this is that it will become along drawn out process in persuading them that (a) the railcard is irrelevant as no discount has been given for the child ticket (b) the issue that the childs ticket clearly shows a railcard is related to this purchase when in fact that is irrelevant as no discount has been given.

 

[Haywain]

The holding of the disabled railcard (with image attached) would quite clearly prove that a valid railcard was held.

Is that in dispute? It's only relevance is that is was used to purchase the adult ticket and therefore lead to the discount code being shown on the child ticket.

 

[Titfield]

Is that in dispute? It's only relevance is that is was used to purchase the adult ticket and therefore lead to the discount code being shown on the child ticket.

No it isnt in dispute but I was conscious of having to lead Merseyrail "by the nose" and providing the prosecutions office with all the information in one go so they didnt come back and ask "did the OP have a railcard?".

Presumably when an MG11 is issued a more detailed report goes to the Prosecutions Office outlining the nature of the "invalidity" of the ticket?

 

[AlterEgo]

While I agree that Merseyrail have behaved appallingly, is asking the OP to complain at this point the best advice? It seems to me that the important thing is to get the threat of prosecution (and so the linked alternative of paying £125 to avoid prosecution) withdrawn.

It’s a stonewall no-prosecution. Groundless. The OP need expend no additional effort getting the prosecution stopped other than writing a single sentence explaining how and why the ticket is valid. The RPI is incompetent; this is how child tickets purchased alongside disabled tickets print.

If I am right on that, @Titfield 's model letter seems a good place to start - but I wonder if it should go into rather more detail of why no prosecution should go ahead. I can think of at least three grounds;

1) No offence was committed

Correct.

2) If the child ticket was in fact not valid

It was though.

, then the wrong person has been reported for prosecution

Nobody should have been reported. This is over complicating the issue.

3) In any event, there is no loss to the railway in that the correct amount of fare has been paid. It is hard to see how it is a good use of scarce court time to bring a prosecution when there is no material harm to the purported victim (i.e. the railway).

There’s no “in any event” here. You’re much too nice. Tickets were valid, end of. No further questions.

Now onto the question of how this useless and feckless outfit compensates the disabled traveller for the distress and inconvenience.