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New railway lines and stations for South Yorkshire

Iskra

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The problem with the 57/57a buses from Stocksbridge is they can often be unreliable & late as they inter work with the 2 Barnsley service at Sheffield Moorfoot. Even with the removal of the Tram Feeder service & the 72/72a from Ecclesfield cancellations are quite regular at times. Also some of the deckers at Ecclesfield are quite tired with the ex Manchester versions having seen better days. The Scania versions that are used Stagecoach keep taking for Peak Sightseer open top duties.

If the Train is problematic extend the Tram from the Tram Stop via Oughtibridge to Fox Valley or link the Tram line onto the existing railway line using Tram Trains.
That would be ridiculously expensive compared to using the existing railway, hence why it is unlikely to ever happen.


The problem with any passenger train/tram service to Stocksbridge is that it won't be viable to serve a town with a population of only 10k, given that it could not be a simple short branch and connectivity into central Sheffield and the wider rail network would be poor.
For the development of Fox Valley Retail Park around 10 years ago now, for Planning purposes Stocksbridge was reckoned to have a catchment area of 125,000 and there has been significant development since then. Plus, you’re ignoring the population along the Don Valley, and assuming the population of Sheffield would never want to use it either.
 
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AlastairFraser

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That would be ridiculously expensive compared to using the existing railway, hence why it is unlikely to ever happen.
Would ordering more Citylinks and extending the Rotherham tram train to Leppings Lane, then using the aforementioned road and Halifax Rd to reach the Stockbridge line be a more sensible solution than a new viaduct across the valley?
 

Meerkat

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For the development of Fox Valley Retail Park around 10 years ago now, for Planning purposes Stocksbridge was reckoned to have a catchment area of 125,000
Wouldn't that be the catchment area of people who would drive to the retail park. Which is not the same as would drive to a station to get a local stopper into (not) Sheffield. They may as well drive all the way, or to a tram P&R.
 

Iskra

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Wouldn't that be the catchment area of people who would drive to the retail park. Which is not the same as would drive to a station to get a local stopper into (not) Sheffield. They may as well drive all the way, or to a tram P&R.
Presumably some public transport use would have been factored in. I think Dransfield (the developer of the retail park) subsided(d) a new bus route too, although I’m not sure if that still happens. Either way, my point stands that 10k is a ridiculous under-estimate, so I don’t think the exact details are all that important.

Driving into Sheffield isn’t particularly pleasant, and the prices charged for parking in the centre are eye-watering, so I’m sure there would be some takers for a park and ride scheme as it should be significantly cheaper than petrol, plus parking in the centre. It would probably be faster and more relaxing due to the congestion on the A61 too.

Would ordering more Citylinks and extending the Rotherham tram train to Leppings Lane, then using the aforementioned road and Halifax Rd to reach the Stockbridge line be a more sensible solution than a new viaduct across the valley?
I’m not sure I follow exactly what you mean, but if you’re proposing joining the current tram network to the Deepcar/Stocksbridge line at Wadsley Bridge; I still think that’s going to be expensive to do due to the differences in height, which would require a lot of construction and land to overcome.

I suspect significant infrastructure works are out of the equation, so it’s probably on the existing line, or nothing at all for cost reasons. I do think that is sensible however.
 
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daodao

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Presumably some public transport use would have been factored in. I think Dransfield (the developer of the retail park) subsided(d) a new bus route too, although I’m not sure if that still happens. Either way, my point stands that 10k is a ridiculous under-estimate, so I don’t think the exact details are all that important.

Driving into Sheffield isn’t particularly pleasant, and the prices charged for parking in the centre are eye-watering, so I’m sure there would be some takers for a park and ride scheme as it should be significantly cheaper than petrol, plus parking in the centre. It would probably be faster and more relaxing due to the congestion on the A61 too.
The population of Stocksbridge town is only 10k, and the wider potential catchment of a Stocksbridge station would only be 15k. There is a perfectly good park and ride facility already at Middlewood for people from the hinterland NW of Sheffield [including Stocksbridge] and beyond. I used it last June (2023) when I went to a day conference at Sheffield Hallam University - it was much pleasanter using the tram than driving into the city centre, although the tram was crowded for the return journey because of an event at Hillsborough stadium. [I couldn't use the train to Sheffield as there were strikes and lots of TPE cancellations.]
 
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Mat17

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There is a perfectly good park and ride facility already at Middlewood for people from the hinterland NW of Sheffield [including Stocksbridge] and beyond. I used it last June (2023) when I went to a day conference at Sheffield Hallam University - it was much pleasanter using the tram than driving into the city centre, although the tram was crowded for the return journey because of an event at Hillsborough stadium. [I couldn't use the train to Sheffield as there were strikes and lots of TPE cancellations.]

The tram is great from Middlewood to Sheffield centre no dispute. But if I wanted to catch a train to say York, Lincoln or Manchester. I'd have to drive to Middlewood, park and wait for a tram. Then catch a yellow tram to Hillsborough, change at Hillsborough and wait ten minutes for a blue route tram to then catch that to the station, to change again. Or stick with a yellow route tram to alight at Castle Square and then do the trudge all the way to Sheffield Midland. All of which I had to do before I could drive. Might as well drive to Darton, Dinting or Penistone for connections.

Stocksbridge has poor connections to anywhere other than Sheffield or Chapeltown. The great thing about a train line connection would not be getting people to Hillsborough or Sheffield centre, but potentially to further afield. So Stocksbridge to Lincoln (or Cleethorpes), Rotherham, Chesterfield etc. are all realistic possibilities.

Not all of us want to go to Sheffield. I always went to Barnsley instead, until they axed nearly all the buses.
 

daodao

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The tram is great from Middlewood to Sheffield centre no dispute. But if I wanted to catch a train to say York, Lincoln or Manchester. I'd have to drive to Middlewood, park and wait for a tram. Then catch a yellow tram to Hillsborough, change at Hillsborough and wait ten minutes for a blue route tram to then catch that to the station, to change again. Or stick with a yellow route tram to alight at Castle Square and then do the trudge all the way to Sheffield Midland. All of which I had to do before I could drive. Might as well drive to Darton, Dinting or Penistone for connections.

Stocksbridge has poor connections to anywhere other than Sheffield or Chapeltown. The great thing about a train line connection would not be getting people to Hillsborough or Sheffield centre, but potentially to further afield. So Stocksbridge to Lincoln (or Cleethorpes), Rotherham, Chesterfield etc. are all realistic possibilities.

Not all of us want to go to Sheffield. I always went to Barnsley instead, until they axed nearly all the buses.
There is no realistic or practical way to connect Stocksbridge or the ex-GC line directly to Sheffield's remaining mainline station (Midland) by rail and thus to the wider rail passenger network. If there had been a feasible way to connect Sheffield Victoria and Midland stations by a direct rail link, there would have been no need to close the Woodhead route to regular passenger services in 1970; it would have sufficed to close Victoria station.
 

Mat17

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There is no realistic or practical way to connect Stocksbridge or the ex-GC line directly to Sheffield's remaining mainline station (Midland) by rail and thus to the wider rail passenger network. If there had been a feasible way to connect Sheffield Victoria and Midland stations by a direct rail link, there would have been no need to close the Woodhead route to regular passenger services in 1970; it would have sufficed to close Victoria station.
None of the routes I suggested require a connection with Midland station, all could use Victoria alone.

Chesterfield via the Old Road (then to Nottingham/London etc.) Lincoln and Cleethorpes are both direct out of Victoria. Rotherham via Woodburn Jct and round to Meadowhall South - could then extend to Leeds, Doncaster etc.

Stocksbridge to Victoria is merely a start, there is a lot of potential there. It could be grown.

A freight train derailment at Sheffield Midland's northern end (or points failure) trains could easily be diverted into Victoria. It opens up possibilities and some flexibility. Midland station's northern approach is very busy and at times can be quite pressured.

Midland and Victoria don't need to be connected to see some benefits.
 

daodao

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None on the routes I suggested require a connection with Midland station, all could use Victoria alone.

Chesterfield via the Old Road (then to Nottingham/London etc.) Lincoln and Cleethorpes are both direct out of Victoria. Rotherham via Woodburn Jct and round to Meadowhall South - could then extend to Leeds, Doncaster etc.

Stocksbridge to Victoria is merely a start, there is a lot of potential there. It could be grown.

A freight train derailment at Sheffield Midland's northern end (or points failure) trains could easily be diverted into Victoria. It opens up possibilities and some flexibility. Midland station's northern approach is very busy and at times can be quite pressured.

Midland and Victoria don't need to be connected to see some benefits.
Is this realistic?

The former Sheffield Victoria station was very poorly sited and was completely demolished in 1989. Sheffield isn't a large enough city to justify re-opening a second main line station with poor connectivity. It closed for good many years ago, and diverting existing services to it (destroying connectivity via Sheffield Midland) would be unhelpful.
 
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Iskra

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Is this realistic?

The former Sheffield Victoria station was very poorly sited and was completely demolished in 1989. Sheffield isn't a large enough city to justify re-opening a second main line station with poor connectivity. It closed for good many years ago, and diverting existing services to it (destroying connectivity via Sheffield Midland) would be unhelpful.
It’s probably the simplest, cheapest way of creating more capacity and more resilient journeys at Midland though…

I think it would do okay if opened, Neepsend is a busy place and nearby Kelham Island also has a new found life and is a popular area.
 

Mat17

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Is this realistic?

The former Sheffield Victoria station was very poorly sited and was completely demolished in 1989. Sheffield isn't a large enough city to justify re-opening a second main line station with poor connectivity. It closed for good many years ago, and diverting existing services to it (destroying connectivity via Sheffield Midland) would be unhelpful.

Is it wrong to dream a little and have some ambition? Before you say it's all pie in the sky, all the routes I mentioned are up and running, all the connections are already there. You'd need some new track and platforms at Victoria and then rebuilt stations on the line up to Stocksbridge, which they are already looking in to. It's not like saying "let's reopen Woodhead" which would be a massive project.

Would you regard Sheffield Midland as well situated? I reckon Victoria and Midland are about on an equal footing, placement wise. Both probably take about the same time on foot to get to Castle Square and Fargate.
 

nw1

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Diesel is proven technology, available straight off the shelf, doesn’t need recharging and would be significantly cheaper and quicker to get into operation than electrification. Electrification could follow at a later date if the initial service is successful.

These are presumably some kind of bi-mode trams which would be electric in the city centre and diesel outside?
 

Iskra

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These are presumably some kind of bi-mode trams which would be electric in the city centre and diesel outside?
Stocksbridge-Barrow Hill, wouldn’t run on any electrified line, so there’s no need for any bi-mode functionality.
 

nw1

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Stocksbridge-Barrow Hill, wouldn’t run on any electrified line, so there’s no need for any bi-mode functionality.

Ah so it's not going into the city centre?
 

Iskra

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Ah so it's not going into the city centre?
It would touch the edge of the centre at the old Sheffield Victoria station, connecting into the existing tram network at Nunnery Square and/or Meadowhall South. The route uses existing freight-only lines but Stocksbridge can’t easily be connected to Sheffield Midland due to the layout of the track, river and existing buildings, hence why the proposed line goes to Barrow Hill and/or Rotherham instead of Sheffield. It also restores services to two lines simultaneously.
 

nw1

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It would touch the edge of the centre at the old Sheffield Victoria station, connecting into the existing tram network at Nunnery Square and/or Meadowhall South. The route uses existing freight-only lines but Stocksbridge can’t easily be connected to Sheffield Midland due to the layout of the track, river and existing buildings, hence why the proposed line goes to Barrow Hill and/or Rotherham instead of Sheffield. It also restores services to two lines simultaneously.


Ah ok, thanks - I expected some kind of city-centre street running hence my comment on bi-modes. I have to admit I am unfamiliar with the details of the railway layout in the area.
 

Bryson

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Ah ok, thanks - I expected some kind of city-centre street running hence my comment on bi-modes. I have to admit I am unfamiliar with the details of the railway layout in the area.
That would be ideal, but it's hard to see where the line could be connected to the existing on street network, a reversal at Nunnery would be needed.
 

Meerkat

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That would be ideal, but it's hard to see where the line could be connected to the existing on street network, a reversal at Nunnery would be needed.
Wouldn’t it leave the railway at Kelham Island and head in to the centre?
 

Iskra

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Wouldn’t it leave the railway at Kelham Island and head in to the centre?
There's a decent height difference to overcome, a river and the A61 to cross all in a short space. This is an option, but an expensive one. I don't think anything that requires any expensive new infrastructure is likely to happen.
 

Killingworth

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I think the stations to from Sheffield to Dore are non-starter unfortunately. I've no doubt the demand is there if they are served my multiple trains per hour, but I don't see where those train services are coming from.

There's only one service local stopping service operating south/west of Sheffield. One train per hour isn't going to be frequent enough to make the train attractive. It works more at Dore because the bus takes longer into Sheffield than it would at other interemediate stations, but Dore is mainly used by people travelling to Manchester.

Perhaps if some sort of turn back loop is created at somewhere like Gridndleford and the line between Sheffield and Dore gets more tracks, it might be possible to run some local services from east of Sheffield as through services providing a decent frequency to new station along the route.

Nunnery Square platforms are a decent idea and the Barrow Hill line should be opened to passengers either using tram-trains or heavy rail.
Heeley, Millhouses, Beauchief and Dore & Totley 4 platform stations were able to support stopping services into Sheffield and beyond. That was in the days when most of the population didn't have access to cars, lived fairly close to the railway and it was quite normal to walk maybe up to a mile to catch a train. In 1939 the future still looked rosy for rail and the Sheffield Star published this.

1939001.jpg

At which point things went badly wrong with a bang, rather a lot of bangs!

By the mid 1950s we'd discovered private motoring and the desire to have a semi or detached house on a green estate away from railways and then away from bus routes too. We also lost the use of legs to use cycles to go to school or work.

Down the Sheaf valley there had been 4 tracks but by 1970 all the platforms were out of use except the 2 at Dore for the Hope Valley line. Behind the backs of all but a few 2 of those 4 tracks were removed along with the redundant platforms, the remaining 2 tracks slewed to achieve better speed and junctions and sidings were removed. Bridges across roads and the Sheaf were removed. Parts of the retained old track bed now carry a selection of railway structures and access points.

Consequently a recent Sheffield MPs bid to open all these stations was rejected by the Reopening Railways scheme before the first fence. To make it work you'd need to recreate the separate fast and slow lines from Dore into Sheffield. HS2 called for a 3rd track from Dore into Sheffield and that complemented the Heeley loops. There isn't room for 4 between the two Archer Road over bridges.

HS2 into Sheffield is dead but initial planning for electrification seems to follow that tracking model - but no new stations. if there were Millhouses would work best - but it's at the most restricted section. A feasibility study was completed - just after Tesco's had built a new store restricting the potential site. With hindsight perhaps it could have been built on stilts above the railway - maybe that's a rebuild project for the future.

Restoring all 4 platforms at Dore was the subject of a feasibility study about 2015 and the new platform has passive provision for it. Too late, the current project was already too advanced to change- and the lack of 4 tracks into Sheffield would probably scupper it anyway.

3 trains an hour pass through the new 6 car platforms at Dore every hour but stops on the fasts are timed for Manchester bound commuters. By far the easiest and cheapest way to provide 2 (or even 3) trains an hour into Sheffield would be to stop the EMR service that runs about 25-35 minutes apart from the Northern service. Previously they were prone to conflicting around the single track Dore area but now can pass each other through the station. But an additional stop adds 3 minutes into the timetable. Huw Merriman suggested a reduced journey time between Sheffield and Manchester - down from 50 to 30 minutes! Just another impractical and conflicting railway aspiration.

Yes, a turnback loop at Grindleford might have merit. Any train entering Sheffield from the north or east could run through to terminate there to relieve Sheffield terminal capacity.

Back again in the 1930s special trains would run through to Hope Valley stations (and Dore) and be held in station sidings to return in the evening. Only Grindleford retains even an engineers siding, but still has plenty of level space to add back more.
 

Meerkat

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There's a decent height difference to overcome, a river and the A61 to cross all in a short space. This is an option, but an expensive one. I don't think anything that requires any expensive new infrastructure is likely to happen.
The road goes over the railway there so the height difference can’t be all that.
The tram could go right over the top or use the A61 bridges, depending on costs and disruption/traffic considerations. And that expensive bit can also be used as the start of a new line heading toward the Northern General Hospital and surrounding suburbs.
How steep a climb can trams do, some of their routes look pretty steep?
 

Iskra

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The road goes over the railway there so the height difference can’t be all that.
The tram could go right over the top or use the A61 bridges, depending on costs and disruption/traffic considerations. And that expensive bit can also be used as the start of a new line heading toward the Northern General Hospital and surrounding suburbs.
How steep a climb can trams do, some of their routes look pretty steep?
Indeed, some of the lines are pretty steep and the trams manage it, the issue is the space required for the incline- I don't see where you're going to fit it in. And then how do trams fit on the congested road to get to that point? There's no space for a separate tram route in the middle of the road immediately around Hillsborough like there is elsewhere in Sheffield, so you'd just be adding to the existing congestion rather than solving/bypassing it.

It's a reasonable difference between the road and railway- and it's the railway that goes over the road.

Railway_bridge_over_Herries_Road%2C_Sheffield_-_geograph.org.uk_-_1343161.jpg


[Photo from Wikipedia]

Anyhow, I still think expensive infrastructure requirements will stop anything from happening.
 

Meerkat

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Indeed, some of the lines are pretty steep and the trams manage it, the issue is the space required for the incline- I don't see where you're going to fit it in. And then how do trams fit on the congested road to get to that point? There's no space for a separate tram route in the middle of the road immediately around Hillsborough like there is elsewhere in Sheffield, so you'd just be adding to the existing congestion rather than solving/bypassing it.

It's a reasonable difference between the road and railway- and it's the railway that goes over the road.

Railway_bridge_over_Herries_Road%2C_Sheffield_-_geograph.org.uk_-_1343161.jpg


[Photo from Wikipedia]

Anyhow, I still think expensive infrastructure requirements will stop anything from happening.
I thought we were discussing how to get a tram from the Stocksbridge railway into the city centre?
I don’t know where that photo is but near Kelham Island the railway goes UNDER the road.

When the crayons get really keen I envisage a P&R built on the works on the opposite bank to Middleswood (with a big bridge and redevelopment of the area). A tram line would then go from there along the railway (to skip the traffic) and then into the City via Kelham Island, with buses from the P&R serving all the places to and including Stocksbridge. Buses for the bit better served by road, tram to avoid the worst road congestion.
 

Iskra

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I thought we were discussing how to get a tram from the Stocksbridge railway into the city centre?
I don’t know where that photo is but near Kelham Island the railway goes UNDER the road.

I mean it does, but it's going to be very complicated to do anything there, to the point that it's unlikely to happen due to the complexity of crossing the river and road network there.
 

Mat17

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That photo is of Herries Road which goes from Hillsborough up to the Northern General.

You are correct in the Kelham area the road goes over the railway line, Pitsmoor Road being one of them.
 

Grimsby town

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I mean it does, but it's going to be very complicated to do anything there, to the point that it's unlikely to happen due to the complexity of crossing the river and road network there.
I'm struggling to see the point of running trams on Stocksbridge to Chesterfield if there isn't some sort of connection to Sheffield City Centre.

It'd maybe reduce the complexity of the signalling north of Sheffield Victoria and allow passengers to use at grade crossings. It'd also make staff costs cheaper. There'll be station savings for tram but that will be offset by need to convert Darnell and Woodhouse. It'd remove flexibility to add more trains from Workop using Victoria as Sheffield Midland is full or using Victoria for diversions when Midland isn't available.
 

YorksLad12

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The amusing part of this thread for me is the way people write about Sheffield Victoria Station as if it still exists. It doesn't.

Magna tram train stop will cost nearly £9m. If you want a heavy rail two-platform replacement you're looking at iro £25m (see Haxby). Plus all of the electrification - you're not getting diesel trams when everyone is pledging to reduce carbon emissions at the point of use.

Simply put, I just don't think it will happen. Not enough political want.
It's also a case of making a case. "There used to be a service" doesn't mean there should be one now. How many car journeys (and consequential carbon emissions) would be removed? Where would you put your P&R sites? Where are you getting the units to run this service (heavy or light rail)? Even if the MCA backed some random "build it and he will come" proposal, they still have to justify the spend of public money to DfT and the National Audit Office.

Remember as well that the MCA has only just put in the outline business case to renew Supertram, which will cost millions just for like-for-like.
 

AlastairFraser

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I’m not sure I follow exactly what you mean, but if you’re proposing joining the current tram network to the Deepcar/Stocksbridge line at Wadsley Bridge; I still think that’s going to be expensive to do due to the differences in height, which would require a lot of construction and land to overcome.

I suspect significant infrastructure works are out of the equation, so it’s probably on the existing line, or nothing at all for cost reasons. I do think that is sensible however.
Sorry for the slow reply - election season!
I meant a branch on street up Leppings Lane and Halifax Road to the Stockbridge line overbridge and then repurposing the access road on the left before the bridge to rise to the level of the railway line. Some works needed, but not a huge amount.
 

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