Potential Order for 20 hybrid 195s for Northern - Speculative discussion

[skyhigh]

Split from this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/195s-truly-awful-not-a-step-forward.223797/

Commercial notice out for a potential order of an additional 20 195s, which could be delivered in bimode form...

 

[JonathanH]

Commercial notice out for a potential order of an additional 20 195s, which could be delivered in bimode form...

Yes, up to 20 units. The tender seems to be for a financier.

Interesting that it refers to Class 195 Hybrid trains - wouldn't they be 795s?

https://bidstats.uk/tenders/2021/W50/765002119

Financing Of Rolling Stock

Description
This procurement is to provide Northern Trains Limited (Northern) with financing for the acquisition of 20 Class 195 hybrid multiple units. Suppliers who wish to make an expression of interest should notify Northern of their intention by using In-Tend system, or if this is not possible by email to [email protected] will be issued with a Memorandum of Information (MOI) detailing a high-level summary of the proposed scope and a summary of the procurement process.

In addition, suppliers will be issued with a Pre Qualification Questionnaire (PQQ) that Northern will use to determine their suitability for this procurement.

Total Quantity or Scope
Northern Trains Limited (Northern) provides 2,800 local and regional train services every day across the north of England, serving a population of nearly 15 million.

There are now 108 million passenger journeys made on our network each year and we employ over 6,500 people.

This makes Northern the second largest train operator in the UK.

Since 2016 we have been modernising to improve our customers' experience by:• removing Pacer trains• introducing 101 brand new trains• providing more than 2,000 extra services each week• enhancing depots• improving infrastructure through gauge clearances and lengthening platforms• improving ticketing and retailing.

From 1 March 2020 we came under public ownership and became Northern Trains Limited, asubsidiary of the Department for Transport's own agency, DfT OLR Holdings (DOHL).

We continue to trade under the name of Northern.

In light of our obligations under Utility Contract Regulations (UCR) 2016 we are looking to procure the financing of up to 20 Class 195 Hybrid Trains

For use on our network.Suppliers who wish Suppliers who wish to make an expression of interest should notify Northern of their intention by using the In-Tend Systemor if that is not possibleby email to [email protected] will be issued with a Memorandum of Information (MOI) detailing a high-level summary of the proposed scope and a summary of the procurement process.

In addition suppliers will be issued with a Pre Qualification Questionnaire (PQQ) that Northern will use to determine their suitability for this procurement. Suppliers should note that the expected procurement timetable is as follows:- Registration of interest, completed pre-qualification questionnaire, and confidentiality agreement deadline - 14/02/22- Invitation to Negotiate issued - 25/02/22- Bid submission deadline - 28/03/22[/URL]

 

[wobman]

Commercial notice out for a potential order of an additional 20 195s, which could be delivered in bimode form...

Caf do offer a bimodel power unit for the civicity platform, Northern / WMT & TFW never specified it ! It's a huge step forward if Northern specified these power packs.

 

[Mikey C]

Yes, 20 units. The tender seems to be for a financier.

https://bidstats.uk/tenders/2021/W50/765002119

That tender says hybrid rather than bimode, so it sounds more like the changes Chiltern will be making to their 165s and 168s with battery packs added, rather than being a bimode which can operate from the wires?

 

[JonathanH]

That tender says hybrid rather than bimode, so it sounds more like the changes Chiltern will be making to their 165s and 168s with battery packs added, rather than being a bimode which can operate from the wires?

Yes, sorry. My mistake. Does a hybrid unit still stay within the 1xx range?

Presumably CAF have already come up with the price and Northern need to find someone with the money?

 

[AM9]

Commercial notice out for a potential order of an additional 20 195s, which could be delivered in bimode form...

Well if Bimode, they wouldn't be 195s. Maybe a 795?

 

[Mikey C]

Yes, sorry. My mistake. Does a hybrid unit still stay within the 1xx range?

I assume they would, as they're still DMUs but with battery packs so that they can enter and leave stations in battery mode

 

[XAM2175]

Regardless of what class number they eventually get (if at all), it's easier to refer to them as 195 hybrids now rather than making something up and constantly having to reply to questions of "what's a 795?".

 

[YorksLad12]

Yes, sorry. My mistake. Does a hybrid unit still stay within the 1xx range?

600 range? That's where the hydrogen train is.

Regardless of what class number they eventually get (if at all), it's easier to refer to them as 195 hybrids now rather than making something up and constantly having to reply to questions of "what's a 795?".

Only on this forum would we be quibbling about the TOPS class number before anyone's even agreed to pay for them!

(And, I agree with you.)

 

[js1000]

Good spot. Been expecting further 195 hybrid/bi-mode units for a year or two now. Hardly surprising.

The 195s aren't the most popular units on here but their incomparable to Pacer and 150s.

 

[JonathanH]

Is this fleet of 20 195s for service expansion or to allow withdrawal of older units?

 

[jonesy3001]

Wouldn't it been better ordering hybrid 331s so they can replace the 769s and be used on the windermere branch.

 

[D365]

Only on this forum would we be quibbling about the TOPS class number before anyone's even agreed to pay for them!

Or on the "comments" section of Rail Magazine, if your name is Andrew!

Wouldn't it been better ordering hybrid 331s so they can replace the 769s and be used on the windermere branch.

"Class 195 hybrid", by the sound of it, is just a placeholder name.

 

[Nym]

Does sound like some very liberal interpretation of procurement law by specifying a specific type of train.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Well if Bimode, they wouldn't be 195s. Maybe a 795?

Who knows? Self-powered units tend to be in the 1xx, 2xx (and now 6xx) series, but the Welsh 769s are essentially used as DEMUs as (as far as I am aware) they never run on the OHLE - do they even still have pantographs and transformers fitted?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I should think Stadler will be in there with a bid for a variant of the class 756 Flirt already ordered for TfW.
They are probably ahead of CAF in engineering a battery solution.
It looks like bidders are the only ones going to see the Northern train spec, and it isn't going to open tender.
Interesting that only OLR TOCs (LNER and Northern) are getting to procure new trains in the National Rail Contracts era.
This must have been cleared in advance with DfT.

 

[XAM2175]

Does sound like some very liberal interpretation of procurement law by specifying a specific type of train.

Do they have any options they've not yet taken up or cancelled? That or they're planning to structure the tender as a request for vehicles that are compatible with the 195s right down to the spares inventory, which would effectively make a bid from CAF the only sane option.

600 range? That's where the hydrogen train is.

That is possible.

To knock this all on the head, here are the allocations from Rail Industry Standard RIS-2453-RST:

Section A.3.1 (Table 7) Multiple unit / fixed formation sets

Rail Vehicle Group	Class Identifier Range
Diesel mechanical / hydraulic multiple unit sets	100 - 199
Diesel electric multiple unit sets	200 - 299
Diesel and / or other fuels multiple unit sets	600 - 699
DC electric multiple unit sets	400 - 599
AC and AC / DC electric multiple unit sets	300 - 399 700 - 749
Multi-mode* multiple unit sets	750 - 799
High-speed* multiple unit / fixed formation sets	800 - 899
Infrastructure maintenance / non-passenger multiple unit / fixed formation sets	900 - 999

(* where a high-speed unit is one capable of operating at speeds above 190 km/h (120 mi/h))
(* where a multi-mode unit is one with more than one source of traction power, of which at least one is external)

As you can see, a diesel+battery configuration doesn't qualify as multi-mode because neither source of traction power is external. Something in the 600-699 range would be acceptable by the wording of the standard, but perhaps not the spirit if you consider that the range shouldn't be for vehicles that don't use alternate fuels.

Self-powered units tend to be in the 1xx, 2xx (and now 6xx) series, but the Welsh 769s are also essentially used as DEMUs as (as far as I am aware) they never run on the OHLE - do they even still have pantographs and transformers fitted?

The 769s are still technically multi-mode units, even if TfW have decided to leave all the AC bits in the depot for the time being.

 

[172007]

£140m for 20 trains, does that suggest 3 or 4 carriages per set. If it's 3 carriages then it's £2.33 per vehicle which suggests hybrid is rather pricey or is that the realistic price these days?

 

[DanNCL]

Interesting that only OLR TOCs (LNER and Northern) are getting to procure new trains in the National Rail Contracts era.
This must have been cleared in advance with DfT.

LNER aren’t anymore as the new EMUs to replace the retained 91s have been quietly ‘deferred’. The only funding for new trains since March 2020 that hasn’t gone to Northern was for 4 extra Stadler Metro units for Tyne & Wear, as the Hydrogen Aventras are also expected to be for Northern.

Northern are doing incredibly well in the post-franchising era compared to other operators and that’s no doubt for political reasons, the Tories have to be seen as doing something in their red wall seats!

 

[LOL The Irony]

Commercial notice out for a potential order of an additional 20 195s, which could be delivered in bimode form...

I'm going to take an educated guess and say they'll be bimodes.

I should think Stadler will be in there with a bid for a variant of the class 756 Flirt already ordered for TfW.
They are probably ahead of CAF in engineering a battery solution.

But CAF
A. Already make up a large portion of the Northern fleet, whom want a homogenous fleet
B. Will probably offer them at a cheaper price

Northern are doing incredibly well in the post-franchising era compared to other operators and that’s no doubt for political reasons, the Tories have to be seen as doing something in their red wall seats!

Still a good thing to have new trains coming along, following the 11 and 3 quarter years of no new trains under Serco Abellio control*

*Yes, I know about the 172s. Ironically, Labour were the reason that never happened.

 

[hwl]

£140m for 20 trains, does that suggest 3 or 4 carriages per set. If it's 3 carriages then it's £2.33 per vehicle which suggests hybrid is rather pricey or is that the realistic price these days?

Diesel is rather pricey to start with these days, the MTU hybrid addition is circa £200-250k more than the non hybrid price per vehicle. Hence 3 car is good guess.

Hybrid also tick the box on JoJo's no diesel only post 2040 policy

I'm going to take an educated guess and say they'll be bimodes.

The cheapest option is upgrading from the standard MTU raft to hybrid raft.

The tender repeated says hybrid not bi-mode so there is no need to make uneducated wrong guesses. The price is correct for the hybrid upgrade.

 

[LOL The Irony]

The cheapest option is upgrading from the standard MTU raft to hybrid raft.

The tender repeated says hybrid not bi-mode so there is no need to make uneducated wrong guesses. The price is correct for the hybrid upgrade.

Why hybridise them though, what does it achieve?

 

[hwl]

Why hybridise them though, what does it achieve?

Fuel savings and emission (CO2 and non C02) reductions.

 

[AM9]

Do they have any options they've not yet taken up or cancelled? That or they're planning to structure the tender as a request for vehicles that are compatible with the 195s right down to the spares inventory, which would effectively make a bid from CAF the only sane option.


That is possible.

To knock this all on the head, here are the allocations from Rail Industry Standard RIS-2453-RST:

Section A.3.1 (Table 7) Multiple unit / fixed formation sets

Rail Vehicle Group	Class Identifier Range
Diesel mechanical / hydraulic multiple unit sets	100 - 199
Diesel electric multiple unit sets	200 - 299
Diesel and / or other fuels multiple unit sets	600 - 699
DC electric multiple unit sets	400 - 599
AC and AC / DC electric multiple unit sets	300 - 399 700 - 749
Multi-mode* multiple unit sets	750 - 799
High-speed* multiple unit / fixed formation sets	800 - 899
Infrastructure maintenance / non-passenger multiple unit / fixed formation sets	900 - 999

(* where a high-speed unit is one capable of operating at speeds above 190 km/h (120 mi/h))
(* where a multi-mode unit is one with more than one source of traction power, of which at least one is external)

As you can see, a diesel+battery configuration doesn't qualify as multi-mode because neither source of traction power is external. Something in the 600-699 range would be acceptable by the wording of the standard, but perhaps not the spirit if you consider that the range shouldn't be for vehicles that don't use alternate fuels.


The 769s are still technically multi-mode units, even if TfW have decided to leave all the AC bits in the depot for the time being.

I think that the only significant bits of the 769s that TfW don't carry around are the pantographs and shoes. It would be too disruptive for the conversion team to remove the transformer/rectifier and the rest of the kit is used.

The 769s are multi-mode units as are the 777s so a 195 that runs on diesel and 'something else' that isn't a fuel (i.e. battery or electric) should also be in that number range according to table 7 above.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Fuel savings and emission (CO2 and non C02) reductions.

A bimode will achieve even greater figures of both and allows for the engine to be replaced by batteries or completely removed in future. Hybridisation is something you do to newish diesel trains to allow them to continue operating until they're life expired, such as 172s and the already existing Civitys.

 

[172007]

For all the negative comments on the 195's, have they settled down to be a reliable unit, I.e. MTIN (Miles per Technical Incident Number). I acknowledge the Yaw damper issue is still outstanding as I understand.

 

[AM9]

A bimode will achieve even greater figures of both and allows for the engine to be replaced by batteries or completely removed in future. Hybridisation is something you do to newish diesel trains to allow them to continue operating until they're life expired, such as 172s and the already existing Civitys.

Agreed. Fitting a battery to a DMU still means that all of it's energy ultimately comes from the diesel engine.

 

[800001]

LNER aren’t anymore as the new EMUs to replace the retained 91s have been quietly ‘deferred’. The only funding for new trains since March 2020 that hasn’t gone to Northern was for 4 extra Stadler Metro units for Tyne & Wear, as the Hydrogen Aventras are also expected to be for Northern.

Northern are doing incredibly well in the post-franchising era compared to other operators and that’s no doubt for political reasons, the Tories have to be seen as doing something in their red wall seats!

The Lner fleet, is still ongoing, and still progressing, down to the short list of potential suppliers.

 

[hwl]

A bimode will achieve even greater figures of both and allows for the engine to be replaced by batteries or completely removed in future.

It will but only if you have sufficient electrification on the routes in the short to medium term and want to spend far more up-front, else hybrid...
This ensures a sufficient fleet post Sprinter and 170 retirement till 2050-2055. (e.g for Cumbrian Coast)

The point is to have selection of solutions e.g. roll out BEMU gradually as units reach end of life and if there is sufficient electrification, EMU if routes wholly electrified both of which are much cheaper than any diesel based option.

Hybridisation is something you do to newish diesel trains to allow them to continue operating until they're life expired, such as 172s and the already existing Civitys.

Or for routes that won't have meaningful electrification for 2 + decades

 

[jonnyfan]

Northern are doing incredibly well in the post-franchising era compared to other operators and that’s no doubt for political reasons, the Tories have to be seen as doing something in their red wall seats!

And judging by the latest minutes from the Rail North meeting (someone may be able to find it) Northern are doing very well from a recovery point of view, with revenue now at 88% of pre-pandemic levels and that's with passenger numbers at 77%. Which are some impressive stats and may give Northern the upper hand to get extra investment such as this.