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Speculation -sequence and teams for TDNS electrification program

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GRALISTAIR

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OK I started one of these threads about 4 years ago and of course it got Graylinged. https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/electrification-teams-speculation.134304/. What do you think the sequencing should be for UK electrification and the teams?

to me start with the obvious easy wins. Also break things into bite size chunks which they are already doing. So Leeds to Huddersfield is already approved. A small chunk of Leeds York is being done. It looks like up to Market Harborough is as good as approved.

So Didcot to Oxford get done. Some work already done and needed for passenger and freight.
 
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stuu

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I would deal with the urban lines with highest frequencies first, so the Snow Hill lines through Birmingham would be right at the top. Perhaps build up a team in the West Midlands, one for Transpennine to deal with suburban routes in W Yorkshire and Lancashire, one for Scotland and one for the south, doing the lines around Bristol first. Then as capacity builds up expand outwards
 

Meerkat

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Which electrification would free up the most of the useful types of DMUs? That should be an important consideration IMO
Guessing I would say Snowhill and Chiltern??
 

GRALISTAIR

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And any electrification should be done in nice bite size chunks ( or salami slicing if you prefer). The TPU is already being done this way and even though I would love to hear the announcement that MML is being electrified in full I will settle for bite size chunks. e.g. get up to Market Harborough done etc.
 

Meerkat

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I don’t dispute that. However look what is happening with TPU
Is TPU really being done in sensible chunks or just in a lumpy way because the budget isn’t there?
AIUI they haven’t authorised anything yet that will allow a transfer to electric trains??
 

GRALISTAIR

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Is TPU really being done in sensible chunks or just in a lumpy way because the budget isn’t there?
AIUI they haven’t authorised anything yet that will allow a transfer to electric trains??
Well Leeds - Huddersfield is one chunk and then there is the 5 mile stretch from Colton Jct between York and Leeds. They seem like separate chunks to me. Logic tells me that next has to be Man Vic to Stalybridge.
 

Mikey C

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The Chiltern Franchise runs out next year, future fleet plans need to be done side by side with NR's plan for the their routes. If bimodes are ordered for the route, then electrification can be done in phases prioritising the inner Birmingham and London sections to start remove DMUs from those cities.
 

Meerkat

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Well Leeds - Huddersfield is one chunk and then there is the 5 mile stretch from Colton Jct between York and Leeds. They seem like separate chunks to me. Logic tells me that next has to be Man Vic to Stalybridge.
Is electrification from Leeds to Huddersfield authorised? In fact is the four tracking at the Huddersfield end definitely being electrified at the same time?
The Chiltern Franchise runs out next year, future fleet plans need to be done side by side with NR's plan for the their routes. If bimodes are ordered for the route, then electrification can be done in phases prioritising the inner Birmingham and London sections to start remove DMUs from those cities.
Would there be value bidding from suppliers for a Design, build, operate long concession for Chiltern?
Obviously the political problem would be the ‘but it’s in the South‘ wailing from up north....
 

quantinghome

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Agree it's sensible to start small and build up. Unfortunately Grayling's decision has scuppered the chance of a large-scale rolling programme immediately following the work which is being finished off now, apart from in Scotland. Small initial schemes allow processes to be ironed out, problems identified and solved. Then it's a question of scaling up. Start with one team or two, then split them when they reach an appropriate scale, so you end up with 5 teams - one per region.
 

Philip Phlopp

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Is electrification from Leeds to Huddersfield authorised? In fact is the four tracking at the Huddersfield end definitely being electrified at the same time?

Would there be value bidding from suppliers for a Design, build, operate long concession for Chiltern?
Obviously the political problem would be the ‘but it’s in the South‘ wailing from up north....

The extent of what precisely is going to be authorised on the TransPennine route is still not fully resolved and will not be fully resolved despite parts of the project already commencing.

I can't see how a design, build, operate concession for Chiltern would work right at this time, given the ongoing financial turmoil caused by COVID and the impending changes to the franchise model, nor realistically can I see how someone could feasibly design, build and operate the Chiltern route when the electrification bill will be several hundred million pounds.

The Chiltern electrification will also be very tricky politically to justify as an early scheme when HS2 is also ongoing between London and Birmingham, much better to focus on GWML further west, connecting Hull, Scarborough and Middlesborough to the ECML and TransPennine route, North Wales Coast electrification and so on, making use of the existing bi-mode stock and reducing their diesel mileage.
 

Meerkat

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I can't see how a design, build, operate concession for Chiltern would work right at this time, given the ongoing financial turmoil caused by COVID and the impending changes to the franchise model, nor realistically can I see how someone could feasibly design, build and operate the Chiltern route when the electrification bill will be several hundred million pounds.
If it’s more a concession than a franchise why wouldn’t it work? Obviously it relies on a decent spec from DfT/NR.......
I don’t understand why a civils/electrification/trainbuilder/finance JV wouldnt be quite keen on a juicy long term contract.
The Chiltern electrification will also be very tricky politically to justify as an early scheme when HS2 is also ongoing between London and Birmingham
what’s the problem - it gets rid of a lot of urban diesel miles, and if you present it as two schemes on same line it is London and Birmingham metro routes, not a competitor for HS2.
 

Philip Phlopp

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If it’s more a concession than a franchise why wouldn’t it work? Obviously it relies on a decent spec from DfT/NR.......
I don’t understand why a civils/electrification/trainbuilder/finance JV wouldnt be quite keen on a juicy long term contract.

what’s the problem - it gets rid of a lot of urban diesel miles, and if you present it as two schemes on same line it is London and Birmingham metro routes, not a competitor for HS2.

First Group looked at funding electrification from ECML to Hull for their Hull Trains operation and couldn't make the finances work, we all did a lot of work on the financial aspects and it just couldn't be made to work. The borrowing costs were simply too high for a project of that nature and the risk was quite significant (perhaps more so than on some other projects with both financial and technical risk to grapple with). It all drifted into a Government project subject to Hull Trains paying a substantial contribution and it was then abandoned.

I also think you're being spectacularly naive if you think anything handed out in the next five years will be describable as "juicy long term contract" - and as we found out with the NW project, it doesn't take much going wrong for all of your cost forecasts to go out of the window, so with the wafer thin margins that are going to be on offer, out of necessity, there won't be much flesh to absorb any significant time and/or cost overruns with a project to electrify the Chiltern Route.

You also forget that Chiltern was owned by John Laing for much of its early life and they did the design-build-finance route on all of the Evergreen upgrades on the Chiltern Route, upto part way through Evergreen 3 which went very sour and needed NR intervention to resolve, admittedly in part due to trying to resolve the conflict between what Chiltern needed and what East West Rail wanted, but that's going to be typical of an electrification scheme. What will suit Chiltern in terms of structures, feeders and such, certainly won't suit freight or other passenger users of the routes.

I also wish you the very best of luck working out how to get your new electric stock working on the shared LUL track - that alone promises to be almost as significant an issue as getting the Crossrail Class 345 stock running, given the different signalling systems. Oh, and of course, Chiltern needs signalling works to get it ready for 25kV too - big bill for that coming up on the horizon.

And I don't see how you can say investment in another London to Birmingham route is not going to be politically difficult when you've got HS2 ongoing.

As I've said, there are easier early routes than the Chiltern to focus on first of all - some have significant route mileage largely or totally cleared, ready for little more than masts and wiring to complete them, others have files and folders with all the survey work done and the what needs done when plans ready to go. They'll have to go first in any case because of the sequencing of clearance and installation works.
 

Meerkat

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First Group looked at funding electrification from ECML to Hull for their Hull Trains operation and couldn't make the finances work, we all did a lot of work on the financial aspects and it just couldn't be made to work. The borrowing costs were simply too high for a project of that nature and the risk was quite significant (perhaps more so than on some other projects with both financial and technical risk to grapple with). It all drifted into a Government project subject to Hull Trains paying a substantial contribution and it was then abandoned.

I also think you're being spectacularly naive if you think anything handed out in the next five years will be describable as "juicy long term contract" - and as we found out with the NW project, it doesn't take much going wrong for all of your cost forecasts to go out of the window, so with the wafer thin margins that are going to be on offer, out of necessity, there won't be much flesh to absorb any significant time and/or cost overruns with a project to electrify the Chiltern Route.

You also forget that Chiltern was owned by John Laing for much of its early life and they did the design-build-finance route on all of the Evergreen upgrades on the Chiltern Route, upto part way through Evergreen 3 which went very sour and needed NR intervention to resolve, admittedly in part due to trying to resolve the conflict between what Chiltern needed and what East West Rail wanted, but that's going to be typical of an electrification scheme. What will suit Chiltern in terms of structures, feeders and such, certainly won't suit freight or other passenger users of the routes.

I also wish you the very best of luck working out how to get your new electric stock working on the shared LUL track - that alone promises to be almost as significant an issue as getting the Crossrail Class 345 stock running, given the different signalling systems. Oh, and of course, Chiltern needs signalling works to get it ready for 25kV too - big bill for that coming up on the horizon.

And I don't see how you can say investment in another London to Birmingham route is not going to be politically difficult when you've got HS2 ongoing.

As I've said, there are easier early routes than the Chiltern to focus on first of all - some have significant route mileage largely or totally cleared, ready for little more than masts and wiring to complete them, others have files and folders with all the survey work done and the what needs done when plans ready to go. They'll have to go first in any case because of the sequencing of clearance and installation works.
But Chiltern will need doing, and if you say a JV won’t do it how would it ever get done?
The LU issue would probably need a design spec decided before the main contract, but again it will need sorting in the future and I am sure there was a thread here that had solutions.
Its not a London to Birmingham route - it’s two commuter networks that happen to have through trains. It would also fill in part of XC, with GW electrification hopefully extending to Banbury.
 

quantinghome

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But Chiltern will need doing, and if you say a JV won’t do it how would it ever get done?
The LU issue would probably need a design spec decided before the main contract, but again it will need sorting in the future and I am sure there was a thread here that had solutions.
Its not a London to Birmingham route - it’s two commuter networks that happen to have through trains. It would also fill in part of XC, with GW electrification hopefully extending to Banbury.
Chiltern needs doing, sure, just like the rest of the network. The question is one of timing. The LU interface will be a real headache. Why put this ahead of other lines which have already had the design work and prep done?
 

Meerkat

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Chiltern needs doing, sure, just like the rest of the network. The question is one of timing. The LU interface will be a real headache. Why put this ahead of other lines which have already had the design work and prep done?
I didn’t realise it was either or. Obviously it would happen after schemes that are shovel ready (like where?)
But it’s a scheme that will take lots of pollution out of city centres and free up lots of diesel units to get us through without building any more.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Surely there is shovel ready and then there is shovel ready.

I would think that for example Huddersfield to Leeds is shovel ready and indeed work has started afaik on site.
I would think likewise with Colton Jct area likewise.
I assume that Man Vic - Stalybridge is much more shovel ready than the Middle bit of Staly - Huddersfield.
Elsewhere around Bristol and Bath a lot of work was done and must be very close to shovel ready. Likewise Didcot - Oxford.

Chilterns cant even be at the design stage.
 

Meerkat

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Is there actually a design for electrifying Thornhill-Leeds? The plans are only for Hudd-Thornhill aren’t they?
Didcot-Oxford depends on decisions on quadrupling some/all.
Filton must surely be ready to start, even if you can’t finish until Bristol East work is finished.
Ready or not, the Bath section isn’t a national priority due to the bi-modes - we should concentrate on getting rid of pure diesels from city centres.
 

The Planner

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Chiltern will end up being a direct award for the time being unless they suddenly make whatever is replacing franchises work very quickly.
 

GRALISTAIR

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One thing I can safely say is: Introduction of bi-mode trains can secure early benefits as an interim measure when electrification of individual routes is delivered in discrete sections.

Not sure where I pulled this quote from but it was in my electronic notes to be used later documents.

Is there actually a design for electrifying Thornhill-Leeds? The plans are only for Hudd-Thornhill aren’t they?

https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2020/0...lectrified-589-million-funding-announced.html I will try and find other links to announcement etc, but this looks like fully funded and 4 tracking Huddersfield to Leeds
 
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stuu

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Ready or not, the Bath section isn’t a national priority due to the bi-modes - we should concentrate on getting rid of pure diesels from city centres.
What's the difference to the people of Bristol and Bath if the emissions come from a train that uses electricity elsewhere? That segment is about as shovel-ready as it's possible to be. There's quite a few piles already done!
 

Philip Phlopp

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Ready or not, the Bath section isn’t a national priority due to the bi-modes - we should concentrate on getting rid of pure diesels from city centres.

I get that you want the Chiltern route electrified as quickly as possible, but choosing to complete schemes that are considerably more advanced first will not delay any proposed scheme to electrify the Chiltern route.

The Chiltern route will need an extremely large amount of design work with structures through London, Birmingham and an AONB to clear. The project will also have a number of interfaces with some existing/newly completed electrification, with further future electrification projects, and with the electrical supply for HS2, which will also have to be handled at the development and design stages. There's also the signalling issues that have previously been discussed to be addressed and a suitable rolling stock strategy to develop in collaboration with LUL.

It's a very long way off from being brought to the 'shovel ready' stage.
 

Energy

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Chiltern is definitely on the sooner rather than later list but now we should we working on 'shovel ready' schemes, a term I don't really like as people's definition of 'shovel ready' varies between an idea which has been brought up and discussed and one which has had a lot of the design work which is required done.
 

Bald Rick

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Chiltern is definitely on the sooner rather than later list but now we should we working on 'shovel ready' schemes, a term I don't really like as people's definition of 'shovel ready' varies between an idea which has been brought up and discussed and one which has had a lot of the design work which is required done.

If ‘shovel ready’ is defined as design work largely done, all that is needed is to get authority and let contracts, then Kettering to Harboro’ is the list.

Not much else is even pencil ready.
 

Bald Rick

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I totally agree - + surely Filton Bank from Bristol Parkway to Bristol Temple Meads

The western bits dropped from GWEP are closest, but I wouldn’t call them shovel ready as far as I’m aware. Bristol has to wait for remodelling next year anyway.
 
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