UK ATC failure Monday 28 August 2023

[Shaw S Hunter]

Ongoing for a couple of hours or so when typing this. NATS has suffered a nationwide failure in its automatic data processing system. Immediate impact is a massive reduction in flow rate to maintain safety leading to many flights being either held on the ground or simply cancelled. Evidently there is no problem in controllers being able to track aircraft but the associated data tags are relying on manual data input.

A look at any flight tracking site will reveal far fewer aircraft than normal in UK airspace especially in the north. Currently there is no estimate for when systems will be fully restored but speculation suggests it could be several days. Just what people wanted on a Bank Holiday and school holidays coming to an end! It would be interesting to know what the contingencies are for this situation especially for Trans-Atlantic traffic.

 

[azOOOOOma]

I think the Transatlantics won’t be as badly impacted as they simply need to leave UK airspace and join the NAT tracks and they’re on their way. Their oceanic clearance will come from Shanwick - which I don’t think is badly impacted. Simply fly to the entry waypoint, keep your speed and flight level and that’s you set for a good few hours. They need little in the way of controlling. In fact, you can go hours without hearing from ATC. I guess airlines may have the option of flying oceanic down T9 to mainland Spain, Portugal, Canaries and Madeira. T9 airway is usually quite busy so I’m not even sure if there is the capacity to take on a lot of new aircraft.

It seems to be planning on where aircraft join other FIRs that is causing the issue. Certainly when I looked before it was US bound flights only leaving Gatwick, then the occasional east bound and a few prime routes to the south. Given that you change frequency and FIRs very frequently heading east, I can see this being a massive PITA.

This will be a nightmare. I imagine many hotels will be full as it is still peak season and there simply won’t be enough space for literally hundreds of thousands of people needing a bed for the night.

 

[kristiang85]

Apparently the issue is sorted now according to NATS.

However, I'm booked to fly from Warsaw to LHR at 8pm so I'm keeping fingers crossed that they might be able to operate flights normally later, but given backlogs I'm not sure.

 

[Mojo]

Apparently the issue is sorted now according to NATS

That’s good to hear. From what I’ve read on other forums it seems many of the estimated times of departures on websites like Flightradar will not be accurate. At least with BA at their outstations it’s normally easy to work it out as it’s typically the same plane working the return leg.

 

[kristiang85]

Yeah flightradar isn't showing my plane so I can't track back, but as it's LOT and not BA I might be lucky (as usually these flights don't just go back and forth from London).

Though an enforced night out in Warsaw won't be the end of the world (just in Skopje at the moment waiting for my first flight).

 

[TheSel]

Interesting to read (this link) on the BBC that:

"... The airline's operations centre is also identifying "suitable diversion airfields if required" - which is necessary given some flights approaching UK airports will only have a finite amount of fuel to hold in the air before they need to land. "

Can anyone advise how many flights approaching UK airports do NOT have "... only a finite amount of fuel ..." on board? And given present Health and Safety laws, should not all aircraft be mandated to have an infinite amount of fuel on board before take-off?

 

[hexagon789]

Interesting to read (this link) on the BBC that:

"... The airline's operations centre is also identifying "suitable diversion airfields if required" - which is necessary given some flights approaching UK airports will only have a finite amount of fuel to hold in the air before they need to land. "

Can anyone advise how many flights approaching UK airports do NOT have "... only a finite amount of fuel ..." on board? And given present Health and Safety laws, should not all aircraft be mandated to have an infinite amount of fuel on board before take-off?

Don't Ryanair only take the mandated minimum or was that a media myth?

 

[Darandio]

And given present Health and Safety laws, should not all aircraft be mandated to have an infinite amount of fuel on board before take-off?

How on earth could they have an infinite amount of fuel on board?

 

[azOOOOOma]

Don't Ryanair only take the mandated minimum or was that a media myth?

No captains can take as much as they want. A few years ago there was a league table of those who took the least discretionary fuel but i believe those days are over.

Only thing limiting you is your performance figures. However with pretty good weather all over the UK and Ireland and this being a last minute failure, I can’t imagine those flights who left for their return flight before this kicked off having much extra fuel onboard.

 

[MasterSpenny]

And given present Health and Safety laws, should not all aircraft be mandated to have an infinite amount of fuel on board before take-off?

Infinite fuel? Thats just impossible as everything has a limit

 

[hexagon789]

No captains can take as much as they want. A few years ago there was a league table of those who took the least discretionary fuel but i believe those days are over.

Thank you, that's much more reassuring to know it is a captain's discretion essentially (albeit still within the safe minimum of course).

However with pretty good weather all over the UK and Ireland and this being a last minute failure, I can’t imagine those flights who left for their return flight before this kicked off having much extra fuel onboard.

Very true, but while I can see some shuffling to clear space at airports, surely there are nevertheless a good number of diversionary options in the UK given the good weather. (As opposed to bad fog which traditionally meant only certain designated airports could be used I understand - such as Prestwick vice Glasgow and Southend vice Heathrow/Croydon for example.)

Or does the size of most modern planes (and thus presumably runway length etc) preclude much in the way of alternatives now?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I think the Transatlantics won’t be as badly impacted as they simply need to leave UK airspace and join the NAT tracks and they’re on their way. Their oceanic clearance will come from Shanwick - which I don’t think is badly impacted. Simply fly to the entry waypoint, keep your speed and flight level and that’s you set for a good few hours. They need little in the way of controlling. In fact, you can go hours without hearing from ATC. I guess airlines may have the option of flying oceanic down T9 to mainland Spain, Portugal, Canaries and Madeira. T9 airway is usually quite busy so I’m not even sure if there is the capacity to take on a lot of new aircraft.

It seems to be planning on where aircraft join other FIRs that is causing the issue. Certainly when I looked before it was US bound flights only leaving Gatwick, then the occasional east bound and a few prime routes to the south. Given that you change frequency and FIRs very frequently heading east, I can see this being a massive PITA.

This will be a nightmare. I imagine many hotels will be full as it is still peak season and there simply won’t be enough space for literally hundreds of thousands of people needing a bed for the night.

The problem would have been an inability for most outbound aircraft to reach their planned entry waypoint at the designated time. I did notice a number of flights from Amsterdam flying via French airspace to reach the Atlantic. Presumably they were able to arrange revised Trans-Atlantic routing via an alternative track.

As you say the nightmare is in the knock-on effects. It would seem even those flights not cancelled will typically be delayed up to 8, perhaps 12, hours. Some airport terminals are going to be very unpleasant places for the next day or so.

 

[Scotrail314209]

It’s been chaos at Edinburgh this afternoon, Several flights cancelled, others delayed by hours.

Never seen a day like it.

 

[Ediswan]

The current system is relatively reliable. The previous system, based at West Drayton, used to fail so often it was barely newsworthy.

 

[azOOOOOma]

Thank you, that's much more reassuring to know it is a captain's discretion essentially (albeit still within the safe minimum of course).


Very true, but while I can see some shuffling to clear space at airports, surely there are nevertheless a good number of diversionary options in the UK given the good weather. (As opposed to bad fog which traditionally meant only certain designated airports could be used I understand - such as Prestwick vice Glasgow and Southend vice Heathrow/Croydon for example.)

Or does the size of most modern planes (and thus presumably runway length etc) preclude much in the way of alternatives now?

For landing you’re not really limited. Places like say Jersey or Isle of Man will take round trip fuel actually. Inverness too. The NEO with medium auto brake and full reverse will stop on a postage stamp.

It is more departure related when you have issues due to performance. Hot day, high density altitude, little wind, full of families and a long flight to the north of UK with headwinds home from say-the Canaries then your performance may take a hit and you end up offloading people if you want to take extra fuel for low visibility operations at your destination but that’s thankfully rare. In the day of the NEO, MAX and improved max takeoff weights chucking people off is quite rare these days thankfully.

You also have the option of tech stopping for fuel in Faro or Lisbon but due to flight time limitations that isn’t used very often as you’ll find you can’t legally get home within hours but a spare crew (when available) can meet you there and take over the flight home.

I believe when the conditions aren’t right the Qantas Perth to Heathrow flight has a significant number of seats blocked and passengers routed via the A380 service from Singapore.

It’s been chaos at Edinburgh this afternoon, Several flights cancelled, others delayed by hours.

Never seen a day like it.

I think it’ll take days to get back to normal. UK based planes are stuck down route and won’t be home to operate first wave tomorrow. Brace positions everyone. It is going to be one of those weeks in aviation!

Laura x

 

[dangie]

The current system is relatively reliable.…

Nowadays no matter how reliable systems are, come that one time when something goes wrong, and let’s be honest, no matter how reliable systems are if something can go wrong it will. There’s no escaping it.

Of course this is a perfect media news event. A ready made catastrophe.

 

[kristiang85]

Now at Warsaw and inevitably the flight is delayed by 1h45m so far. I just hope it's not a night of regular added delays before a cancellation.. would much rather be out of the airport if that's the case!

 

[azOOOOOma]

I would keep an open mind but prepare for the worst. Hope you manage to get to your destination soon.

Laura x

 

[kristiang85]

I would keep an open mind but prepare for the worst. Hope you manage to get to your destination soon.

Laura x

Thanks Laura! Luckily it's the homebound rather than my outbound, which would have upset me a lot more...

 

[Scotrail314209]

I think it’ll take days to get back to normal. UK based planes are stuck down route and won’t be home to operate first wave tomorrow. Brace positions everyone. It is going to be one of those weeks in aviation!

Laura x

Crewing is going to be a major issue too. Lots of early crew landed late in the evening meaning they won’t have the hours for tomorrow, and the late crews are very delayed. It’s going to be a testing few days

 

[azOOOOOma]

Time to spare? Go by air!

 

[1Q18]

And given present Health and Safety laws, should not all aircraft be mandated to have an infinite amount of fuel on board before take-off?

It's entirely possible that this is intended tongue-in-cheek and if so I apologise.

If not, there's several reasons why commercial aircraft usually only fly with the fuel they need and a limited reserve, rather than just brimming the tanks:

• First and foremost, making the aircraft heavier by carrying excess fuel means the engines have to work harder and burn more fuel for the given journey, with consequences for the airline's profit margin and also for the environment through increased carbon emissions.
• Having the tanks completely fuel may mean the aircraft exceeds it's maximum takeoff weight with a full load of passengers/cargo.
• Aircraft need to be within their maximum landing weight by the end of their journey in order to safely land, and again increasing the weight of fuel it's landing with reduces the amount of passengers and cargo which can be carried.

 

[dangie]

Just a thought.
When aircraft receives fuel I'm assuming the airline pays the price of fuel at that airport?
For example. If a flight was from London to Frankfurt, if fuel was cheap(er) at London would the aircraft fuel up for the return journey?
If fuel was cheap(er) at Frankfurt would the aircraft take less fuel then refuel at Frankfurt for the return journey?
Hope this makes sense.

 

[azOOOOOma]

That’s correct. It’s called tankering. Either you fuel with the entire round trip fuel or stick a few extra tonnes of fuel on to save money at the other end. Usually it is to do with cost or supply issues although it is getting less common due to the fact that you’ll waste around 2% of additional fuel carried per hour so there’s a cost and environmental impact too. Airlines are run by spreadsheets so there will be an algorithm that works out if it is worth tankering or not.

You can’t refuel with thunderstorms in the vicinity so sometimes that can be a good reason to tanker fuel as you don’t have to wait for a storm to pass and then be aircraft number 20 to be fuelled.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Places like say Jersey or Isle of Man will take round trip fuel actually

They don’t. EasyJet fuel here. Loganair’s planes are based here.

I was flying from the island to the UK today. Luckily I saw the news and was able to get on Manannan to Liverpool. I was out and booked it on my phone, by the time I got home the boat was full. Hoping EasyJet reimburse my ferry fare…

 

[dangie]

Friend of ours flew out of Heathrow this afternoon to Canada. Flight left 2 hours late. Not bad considering the reported chaos.

 

[MasterSpenny]

Friend of ours flew out of Heathrow this afternoon to Canada. Flight left 2 hours late. Not bad considering the reported chaos.

On a regular day this would just be way too bad. On my Air Asia flight from Bali to Singapore a couple weeks ago, it was delayed by 80 minutes (forgot to mention this in my post in the Flights you’ve been on thread). Can’t remember why though.

 

[azOOOOOma]

They don’t. EasyJet fuel here. Loganair’s planes are based here.

I was flying from the island to the UK today. Luckily I saw the news and was able to get on Manannan to Liverpool. I was out and booked it on my phone, by the time I got home the boat was full. Hoping EasyJet reimburse my ferry fare…

Well I can assure you they certainly used to. But only been there during the pandemic so perhaps it isn’t the norm. I can see that fuelling hours are limited and imagine that arriving off schedule will require tankering even today with the note “ground equipment not available: refuelling - limited hours - check AOI if fuel uplift required. Limited de-icing”. So the ‘if’ fuel required suggests to me that some flights still do tanker but it’s been a good few years since I’ve been.

Same with Jersey - Blue Islands are based there and it obviously has a fuel supply but didn’t stop easyJet flights round-tripping.

Inverness too has based Loganair aircraft but some EZY would round trip, particularly during the pandemic.

 

[1Q18]

Well I can assure you they certainly used to. But only been there during the pandemic so perhaps it isn’t the norm. I can see that fuelling hours are limited and imagine that arriving off schedule will require tankering even today with the note “ground equipment not available: refuelling - limited hours - check AOI if fuel uplift required. Limited de-icing”. So the ‘if’ fuel required suggests to me that some flights still do tanker but it’s been a good few years since I’ve been.

Same with Jersey - Blue Islands are based there and it obviously has a fuel supply but didn’t stop easyJet flights round-tripping.

Inverness too has based Loganair aircraft but some EZY would round trip, particularly during the pandemic.

Certainly fuel for road vehicles is more expensive on the islands than the mainland thanks to the logistics of shipping, so it seems logical that aviation fuel would be no different. Whether or not it's worth round-tripping presumably then comes down to whether the price differential at any given time makes it worth carrying the extra fuel on the outbound leg.

 

[azOOOOOma]

Most likely. Cost was usually the reason for it at Jersey or Inverness. Then other places will just randomly have a few tankering tonnes stuck on. I guess it’s due to the price at the time. It was very common during the pandemic.