Using a fake Railcard

[Hadders]

Do i have to tell them the exact number of times I've used the fake railcard? -as its quite a lot, would i get away with saying I've used it on multiple occasions over the past 8 months.Also you said i have to pay the settlement in full what if i wont have the money straight away can i pay it back bit by bit (and add that im a broke student)? Could there be another way to settle it if i don't have money?

If you want to maximise your chances of a settlement then my advice is to co-operate with them. Using a fake railcard is a serious matter and many would argue that a case like this should end up in court. You are not in a strong position to negotiate - the ball is in GTR's court.

Train companies generally don't allow payment plans because of the risk of people not paying. You will need to find the money from somewhere.

Does anyone know how i can find my trainline full ticket history as the one on the app is limited?

I'd have thought you could access this through Trainline website.

 

[Brissle Girl]

You say the history on the app is limited. Is it any greater if logged in via a standard web browser, say on a laptop?

Ultimately, if you can’t access history beyond a certain point, explain that in your response, and let them know the date at which your previous railcard expired, so they know you are not trying to hide things from them.

 

[CyrusWuff]

One potential option would be to make a Subject Access Request to Trainline. This can be done by emailing [email protected]. The downside is they might not reply within the timescale the OP has been given by GTR.

 

[cb358]

Ive written my letter responding to their email. Let me know if it’s okay to send or if any changes should be made/anything added.



Dear Sir/Madam,



I am writing to express my sincere apologies for the incident that occurred involving me using an invalid railcard. I realize that my actions were inexcusable and I deeply regret the inconvenience and trouble it has caused.



From this unfortunate experience, I have learned the importance of being responsible and ensuring that all fares are paid in a timely manner. I understand the impact of my actions on your company and the importance of compliance with the terms and conditions of travel. Since then i have purchased a valid oyster card.



I would like to settle this matter amicably and without the need for court action. I am willing to pay the outstanding fare, as well as any administrative costs incurred by GTR in dealing with this issue. Please let me know the total amount owed so that I can make the necessary payment promptly.



I have had a look back at my bank statement and from 14th July 2023 i spent £657.68 on tickets on train line where most were brought with an invalid railcard.



I assure you that this incident was an isolated lapse in judgment and I am committed to ensuring that it does not happen again in the future. I value the service provided by your train company and I would like to resolve this matter in a fair and respectful manner.

Thank you for your understanding and cooperation in this matter. I look forward to hearing from you soon regarding whats next.

 

[notmyrealname]

Hi. See what the forum experts think but I wonder if your letter could be shorter.

Is it all your own work? I ask because there's at least one American spelling in there and it reads a bit like AI.

 

[Brissle Girl]

The second paragraph reads as if it is AI generated verbiage, and could all go, except for possibly the last sentence.

The penultimate paragraph doesn’t feel right either. Carrying a forged railcard for months doesn’t feel like an isolated lapse. And I’m not sure what you mean by a fair and respectful manner. Are you asking them to be fair and respectful. Fairness doesn’t really come into it, they are entitled to prosecute you, and I’m not sure how you can promise to be fair?

 

[Titfield]

The second paragraph reads as if it is AI generated verbiage, and could all go, except for possibly the last sentence.

The penultimate paragraph doesn’t feel right either. Carrying a forged railcard for months doesn’t feel like an isolated lapse. And I’m not sure what you mean by a fair and respectful manner. Are you asking them to be fair and respectful. Fairness doesn’t really come into it, they are entitled to prosecute you, and I’m not sure how you can promise to be fair?

My view may be overly harsh but for what it is worth:

1. Paragraph 1 The use of the word incident (singular). I think it would be better expressed as ' for my use of an invalid railcard'. This wording does not state that it was a single incident though it could be taken to mean that. You could of course insert the word "repeated" so it reads "repeated use of an invalid railcard.
2. Paragraph 2. Using an invalid railcard and being caught is not unfortunate.
3. Paragraph 2. Not sure why purchasing an ouster card will give them any comfort that you wont reoffend.
4. As @Brissle Girl has said it doesnt feel like an isolated lapse. In fact it most definitely wasnt. It was a conscious decision to avoid paying the correct fare by altering a railcard. This demonstrates prior thought and action.
5. Paragraph 4. I think you need to say that you are unable to fully access your booking and travel history. Your railcard expired on (insert date) and that since then according to your bank statement you spent £xxx. Say that you would be grateful if they could provide a list of tickets purchased since (insert date) and that you will endeavour to reconcile them to booking confirmation emails.
6. Paragraph 5 repeats part of paragraph 3. The bit about a fair and respectful manner is nonsense.
7. The last sentence can be abbreviated to I look forward to hearing from you.
8. Thank them for their understanding and assistance in resolving this matter. (You dont want to suggest that it is them cooperating with you).

 

[cb358]

Ive changed the letter based on feedback. Please let me know if it’s better or if any changes should be done.



Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to express my sincere apologies for my use of an invalid railcard. I realise that my actions were inexcusable and I deeply regret the inconvenience and trouble it has caused.

For this experience, Ive understood the impact of my actions on your company and the importance of being responsible and ensuring that all fares are paid for. I am committed to ensuring that it does not happen again in the future.

I'm asking for this to be settled outside of court as quick as possible. I am willing to pay the outstanding fare, as well as any administrative costs incurred by GTR in dealing with this issue.

I am unable to fully access my booking and travel history. My railcard expired on 18th January 2023 and since then according to my bank statement I spent £657.68. I would be grateful if you could provide a list of tickets purchased since 18th January 2023 and I will endeavour to reconcile them to booking confirmation emails.

Thank you for your understanding and assistance in resolving this matter. Im looking forward to hearing from you soon.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Ive changed the letter based on feedback. Please let me know if it’s better or if any changes should be done.



Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to express my sincere apologies for my use of an invalid railcard. I realise that my actions were inexcusable and I deeply regret the inconvenience and trouble it has caused.

For this experience, Ive understood the impact of my actions on your company and the importance of being responsible and ensuring that all fares are paid for. I am committed to ensuring that it does not happen again in the future.

I'm asking for this to be settled outside of court as quick as possible. I am willing to pay the outstanding fare, as well as any administrative costs incurred by GTR in dealing with this issue.

I am unable to fully access my booking and travel history. My railcard expired on 18th January 2023 and since then according to my bank statement I spent £657.68. I would be grateful if you could provide a list of tickets purchased since 18th January 2023 and I will endeavour to reconcile them to booking confirmation emails.

Thank you for your understanding and assistance in resolving this matter. Im looking forward to hearing from you soon.

Presumably the amount you've calculated as having been spent on tickets with an unwarranted railcard discount being applied is not the amount you'll be asked to pay to settle this out of court (assuming they're willing to do so). Firstly, they'll want to charge you the full undiscounted single fare price for every individual journey (which is by definition more than you paid), and secondly the invalid tickets you did have are likely to be ignored for the purpose of the calculation - ie they're likely to charge you the full cost without subtracting whatever you paid before. So bear that in mind when working out what you'll need to have available at fairly short notice if you want to take up an offer of an out-of-court settlment (if they do offer one).

Also - some of the letter still reads to me as though it's been written by an obsequious US computer (albeit one which can't punctuate properly).

 

[cb358]

So would that mean the the amount i paid so far £657.68 x2 = £1,315 (16-17 saver is 50% off) plus additional charges lets say £300. = around £2,000 is this correct??

Everyones mentioned i may have to pay the full price of every ticket including the amount i have already paid. Which i find quite unfair despite my case and if it will be the case then is there another way to solve it, taking it to court? and lets say it gets taken to court what could the possible outcomes be like?

 

[Gloster]

So would that mean the the amount i paid so far £657.68 x2 = £1,315 (16-17 saver is 50% off) plus additional charges lets say £300. = around £2,000 is this correct??

Everyones mentioned i may have to pay the full price of every ticket including the amount i have already paid. Which i find quite unfair despite my case and if it will be the case then is there another way to solve it, taking it to court? and lets say it gets taken to court what could the possible outcomes be like?

If you take it to court there is little doubt that you will lose and get a criminal record. Do you want that? The amount that the court orders you to pay might be less than an out of court settlement, although probably not massively so, but the judgement could have long term financial consequences.

And if you think it is unfair, think what those who have correctly paid their fares might think if you got away lightly.

 

[AlterEgo]

So would that mean the the amount i paid so far £657.68 x2 = £1,315 (16-17 saver is 50% off) plus additional charges lets say £300. = around £2,000 is this correct??

Yes, around this number, as they aren't obliged to account for the discounted fares you defrauded them of by doctoring the railcard during an out of court settlement. Every single ticket you bought was done so fraudulently. Some may argue the company should only ask for the excess, not the full amount, but unfortunately it is not your choice.

and lets say it gets taken to court what could the possible outcomes be like?

You would probably be convicted of fraud. This is a stonewall fraud case. You have committed fraud, over a prolonged period, worth over a thousand pounds.

You should be exceptionally fortunate the police haven't arrested you. That is what happens if you do this in basically any other industry; they knock on your door and take you to the station in their car.

 

[cb358]

Also im running out of time to send the email (deadline Thursday). I want to be as cooperative as possible but at the same time i know they will try get the most money of me and even though i know i’ve done wrong i still want a say in it and for it to be fair on both sides. Please advise me whats best.

 

[skyhigh]

So would that mean the the amount i paid so far £657.68 x2 = £1,315 (16-17 saver is 50% off) plus additional charges lets say £300. = around £2,000 is this correct??

Everyones mentioned i may have to pay the full price of every ticket including the amount i have already paid. Which i find quite unfair despite my case and if it will be the case then is there another way to solve it, taking it to court? and lets say it gets taken to court what could the possible outcomes be like?

If it goes to court, you'll end up with a criminal conviction plus a fine.

If you evaded over £1k worth of fares by faking a Railcard it's likely that if you decline a settlement offer they will decide to pass the case onto BTP who will look to prosecute you for fraud. That would have a major impact on your day-to-day life so you really don't want that.

You might find it 'unfair' but you have deliberately defrauded the railway out of a large sum of money so you're probably not the best person to complain about unfair behaviour. If they offer a settlement my advice would be take it.

 

[Gloster]

i still want a say in it and for it to be fair on both sides

You committed the offence. You do not have the right to decide what the punishment should be.

 

[Oscar46016]

On your last email you haven't mentioned the fact you've now bought a valid oyster card - you should mention this as it shows that you still want to use their service and are will to pay the appropriate price.

I used to fare dodge back in the 80's and got caught once - Transport Police called, taken to a "room" and my parents called etc.

Never did it again ( Honest Guv! ).

 

[island]

i still want a say in it and for it to be fair on both sides.

What would be "fair on both sides" would be if you'd paid your fares to start with rather than dodging them. We're past that point now and your options if offered a settlement will be (1) like it or (2) lump it. Forging a railcard is a serious offence that could get you jail time.

If you have not yet sent in the email reply then you should do so promptly.

 

[johnny_t]

So would that mean the the amount i paid so far £657.68 x2 = £1,315 (16-17 saver is 50% off) plus additional charges lets say £300. = around £2,000 is this correct??

Everyones mentioned i may have to pay the full price of every ticket including the amount i have already paid. Which i find quite unfair despite my case and if it will be the case then is there another way to solve it, taking it to court? and lets say it gets taken to court what could the possible outcomes be like?

Just to put it another way, if the sanction for underpaying your fares was simply to make you pay (in total) what you should have paid anyway, that's not much of a disincentive to stop people trying it on. Given that you have no defence in court and being found guilty is inevitable, I don't think they will treat you any more leniently than this settlement offer.

 

[furlong]

Just send the letter - it doesn't need to be perfect. Once you've opened a dialogue like that letter does you can work out between you the basis for a settlement. The starting point for an out-of-court settlement of a criminal matter is the difference between what you actually paid and what you should have paid plus something to cover their costs. (For reference - here's someone who got prosecuted for fraud where the court agreed with the defendant and not the train company that compensation should be based on the actual loss to the railway - Daily Mail)

 

[Camsus]

Please remember we have seen several instances in recent times where GTR did not charge peak single fares, but instead used return fares, even off-peak where appropriate. I may be wrong, but I also don't recall anyone saying that GTR had disregarded the fares that they'd paid, as they'd instead been willing to take these into account.

Given the OP is clearly concerned about how much any settlement that is offered may be, informing them they'll have to pay single fares with no allowance made for the fares they paid, doesn't really have any evidence to back this claim up. Or are least not as far as I can see.

I would suggest they send back their email and wait to see how GTR intend to play it.

 

[Haywain]

Given the OP is clearly concerned about how much any settlement that is offered may be, informing them they'll have to pay single fares with no allowance made for the fares they paid, doesn't really have any evidence to back this claim up.

Maybe not, but if we inform people of the worst case scenario, they won't be upset when it turns out to be better than expected. Doing otherwise may lead to people being in for a very nasty shock when it turns out to be wrong. It's worth bearing in mind that not long ago someone else dealing with GTR was told that they never prosecute people who engage with them, so it came as a nasty shock when they received a summons and GTR declined to withdraw it.