Conwy Valley Line

[krus_aragon]

Hinkley Point - the distance from there to the transload at Bridgwater is more than that from Trawsfynydd to Blaenau Ffestiniog. And the A470 runs directly between Trawsfynydd and Blaenau, unlike the minor roads to Hinkley Point (though they may have been upgraded by the power station contractors).

The A470 between Blaenau and Trawsfynydd includes an acute turn in Llan Ffestiniog, a low overbridge (under the railway line) immediately after, and a nasty hilly and windy section between Llan Ffestiniog and Bontnewydd. I don't think it's even a trunk route for road purposes. Taking the A496 through Tanygrisiau and then the A487 past Gellilydan would be the more sensible route for a HGV.

 

[TB]

On a different topic, the only crossing loop on the line is at North Llanrwst station.
How do trains operate through the station? Do they use both platforms or (as the line is essentially 'one train in steam' unless there is a charter or something) do trains use the same platform/track in either direction with the second platform/track only used on the rare occasion of needing to cross trains?

 

[Krokodil]

The points are sprung. The loop is always left-hand running, without interference from the signaller. Presumably the intention was to convert to RETB/NST-R and close the box but the job was never completed.

 

[Russel]

The points are sprung. The loop is always left-hand running, without interference from the signaller. Presumably the intention was to convert to RETB/NST-R and close the box but the job was never completed.

When was the loop last used as a passing loop?

Not sure why they don't concentrate all services on one platform, it would make it disabled friendly without the need to use the barrow crossing.

 

[krus_aragon]

When was the loop last used as a passing loop?

Not sure why they don't concentrate all services on one platform, it would make it disabled friendly without the need to use the barrow crossing.

If you're talking about scheduled passenger services passing, it's donkey's years. 2D53's timetable graphs would suggest that summer 1989 was the last time passenger services were passing at Llanrwst.

After that, it was used for passenger trains passing Trawsfynydd freight while that lasted. The main use it has these days is in allowing charter railtours to pass service trains while on the branch. There's two such passing movements on Wednesday the 15th of this month, for example.

 

[Krokodil]

Not sure why they don't concentrate all services on one platform, it would make it disabled friendly without the need to use the barrow crossing.

How much do you want to spend on submersible point motors and their maintenance? Not to mention an extra starting signal and the cost of re-locking the frame?

 

[Russel]

How much do you want to spend on submersible point motors and their maintenance? Not to mention an extra starting signal and the cost of re-locking the frame?

I have no idea, but at some point the track and pointwork will in situ will need renewing, is replacing it like for like for the sake of a few charter services cost effective, especially when you factor in the signallers wages?

 

[Krokodil]

I have no idea, but at some point the track and pointwork will in situ will need renewing, is replacing it like for like for the sake of a few charter services cost effective, especially when you factor in the signallers wages?

You don't need a signaller to pass trains. NST-R can do that. To close the box you just need to redirect the crossing phones to Junction PSB (or SWCC) and install token instruments on the platform. Obviously you need someone to answer those phones and it remains to be seen whether they're deemed an acceptable extra workload for the Junction signaller. No chance of rationalising the loop. Apart from charter traffic it also allows Network Rail's test trains and any potential freight to pass the passenger service during the hours the line is open. Do away with the loop and you can't fit them in, and you also quash any potential extra services - the WG has expressed vague aspirations to improve frequencies in the long term

 

[Bletchleyite]

You don't need a signaller to pass trains. NST-R can do that. To close the box you just need to redirect the crossing phones to Junction PSB (or SWCC) and install token instruments on the platform. Obviously you need someone to answer those phones and it remains to be seen whether they're deemed an acceptable extra workload for the Junction signaller. No chance of rationalising the loop. Apart from charter traffic it also allows Network Rail's test trains and any potential freight to pass the passenger service during the hours the line is open. Do away with the loop and you can't fit them in, and you also quash any potential extra services - the WG has expressed vague aspirations to improve frequencies in the long term

Speculative thread to continue: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/improving-conwy-valley-services-and-infrastructure.267192/

Unless you were going for an uneven service the loop is slightly in the wrong place to increase to two hourly clockface which is the likely best you are going to achieve without seriously major works (the spare time could be used to do more Llandudno-Jn shuttles or run stopping to Holyhead so the expresses could run fast). A second platform at Betws (or a Dyfi Junction style arrangement there as the platform is quite long) would probably be needed. I did try to work out a timetable a while back and it couldn't be done with the loop where it is.

You would want clockface because of the Sherpa bus connections.

 

[splashoutradio]

I have no idea, but at some point the track and pointwork will in situ will need renewing, is replacing it like for like for the sake of a few charter services cost effective, especially when you factor in the signallers wages?

As @Krokodil has already mentioned, it's unlikely that control of the line will be passed to Llandudno Junction signal box.

Whilst the line itself doesn't have much rail traffic, the number of user worked crossings on the line is likely to create significant call volumes, especially at times of the year when farmers are at thier busiest. Dealing with these, as well as dealing with the safety of trains, isn't likely to be considered an acceptable workload for the signaller at LLJ.

Removing the passing loop would remove any flexibility the line currently has. Whilst it wouldn't present an issue to the current passenger service, it would prevent any route learning, charter or departmental trains (as well as any potential freight flows in the future) during the day, without decimating the passenger service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Removing the passing loop would remove any flexibility the line currently has. Whilst it wouldn't present an issue to the current passenger service, it would prevent any route learning, charter or departmental trains (as well as any potential freight flows in the future) during the day, without decimating the passenger service.

You could probably save a path for a charter round trip once a day (I have said before that you could easily work out a 4 or 5 round-trip timetable that would actually be more useful than the present blind every 3 hours one (6 trips) by thinking of the specific purpose of each train and timing them accordingly - there's an old thread on it somewhere) but if it's marginal in terms of needing a dedicated signaller anyway you might as well keep it. Probably easier to do it there than Windermere (which can't fit any charters despite the massive attractiveness they would have).

OTOH I think we're quite lucky we avoided any cuts to it given how it'd have similar status to the Pwllheli route which has been slashed in winter.

 

[Llandudno]

You could probably save a path for a charter round trip once a day (I have said before that you could easily work out a 4 or 5 round-trip timetable that would actually be more useful than the present blind every 3 hours one (6 trips) by thinking of the specific purpose of each train and timing them accordingly - there's an old thread on it somewhere) but if it's marginal in terms of needing a dedicated signaller anyway you might as well keep it. Probably easier to do it there than Windermere (which can't fit any charters despite the massive attractiveness they would have).

OTOH I think we're quite lucky we avoided any cuts to it given how it'd have similar status to the Pwllheli route which has been slashed in winter.

There isn’t much to cut on the Conwy Valley Line, during Covid and for many months after the last train left Llandudno just after 4pm!

 

[Krokodil]

The line requires just one unit diagram so anything short of closure wouldn't save much there. I imagine that the social aspect played a significant role, there are buses shadowing most of the Cambrian so nowhere is left completely severed.

 

[MountainDave]

I live near the line and it has the distinctive clackety clack of jointed rail. How unusual is this now in the UK? Is there any likely prospect that it may get upgraded to CWR at some point?

 

[30907]

I live near the line and it has the distinctive clackety clack of jointed rail. How unusual is this now in the UK? Is there any likely prospect that it may get upgraded to CWR at some point?

Welcome!

The answer is "eventually" - but that could be decades, and might be recycled from the main line. The infrequent diesel units don't wear out the track that quickly - in fact the Mallaig line (with slightly more traffic) had 45ft - or possibly 39ft - rail in one place in 2018 which would make it 70+ years old back then. Is it still there, anyone (Lochailort way).

 

[Russel]

Welcome!

The answer is "eventually" - but that could be decades, and might be recycled from the main line. The infrequent diesel units don't wear out the track that quickly - in fact the Mallaig line (with slightly more traffic) had 45ft - or possibly 39ft - rail in one place in 2018 which would make it 70+ years old back then. Is it still there, anyone (Lochailort way).

I kind of assumed track replacements on the Conwy Valley were only done as and when bits get washed away!

 

[Russel]

Are there a few TSR's on the Conwy Valley at the moment?

I'm using it tomorrow to catch the bus to Pen-Y-Pass from Betws-Y-Coed and checking RTT, nearly every service has lost 5 minutes between Llandudno Junction and Betws-Y-Coed recently...

Not feeling hopeful about the 5 minute connection with the bus!

 

[Llandudno]

Are there a few TSR's on the Conwy Valley at the moment?

I'm using it tomorrow to catch the bus to Pen-Y-Pass from Betws-Y-Coed and checking RTT, nearly every service has lost 5 minutes between Llandudno Junction and Betws-Y-Coed recently...

Not feeling hopeful about the 5 minute connection with the bus!

I presume that you are referring to the lunchtime train from Llandudno to Betws that only offers a 5 minute ‘connection’ with the Sherpa Bus?

I can guarantee that the bus will not intentionally wait for the arrival of the train as there is no attempt to coordinate subsidised bus services with subsidised train services in Wales.

The key is to be ready to alight the train the second the doors open and exit the station building promptly and the Sherpa bus stop is about 70-80 metres on the right. Hopefully there will be some would be passengers waiting at the bus stop which may slightly delay the bus departure.

Good luck, otherwise grab a coffee or pint and catch the bus an hour later.

That’s how joined up public transport works in Wales I’m afraid!

 

[Russel]

I presume that you are referring to the lunchtime train from Llandudno to Betws that only offers a 5 minute ‘connection’ with the Sherpa Bus?

I can guarantee that the bus will not intentionally wait for the arrival of the train as there is no attempt to coordinate subsidised bus services with subsidised train services in Wales.

The key is to be ready to alight the train the second the doors open and exit the station building promptly and the Sherpa bus stop is about 70-80 metres on the right. Hopefully there will be some would be passengers waiting at the bus stop which may slightly delay the bus departure.

Good luck, otherwise grab a coffee or pint and catch the bus an hour later.

That’s how joined up public transport works in Wales I’m afraid!

Yes, the mid day train, but the morning train looks to loose a few minutes too.

If I end up having an hour to wait, I'll take my son over to the railway museum to kill some time, so it's not a massive issue, but I was planning to be back into Betws for about 4 so I can catch the train down to Ffestiniog before heading back up to the mainline.

Most TFW services I use seem to loose time enroute, maybe TFW need to look at adding a bit of slack into their timetables.

 

[Cestrian21]

Are there a few TSR's on the Conwy Valley at the moment?

I'm using it tomorrow to catch the bus to Pen-Y-Pass from Betws-Y-Coed and checking RTT, nearly every service has lost 5 minutes between Llandudno Junction and Betws-Y-Coed recently...

Not feeling hopeful about the 5 minute connection with the bus!

There is a 20 TSR between Dolgarrog and North Llanrwst. However the most likely cause is the tight timings on the Conwy Valley, plus request stop working, particularly in the summer.

 

[Russel]

There is a 20 TSR between Dolgarrog and North Llanrwst. However the most likely cause is the tight timings on the Conwy Valley, plus request stop working, particularly in the summer.

I'd imagine, being run by the same unit all day shuttling back and forth there isn't a lot that can be done about the timings is there, other than only running as far as Llandudno Junction.

 

[izvor]

I noticed the dire bus/train connections at Betws while staying in Blaenau recently. Several intended trips had to be aborted for this reason. The connections at LLJ to/from Bangor are also poor. Come on TfW, surely you can do better than this? Any visitors from, say, Switzerland would be left shaking their heads in despair.

By the way, I noticed that usage of the line is very low, and down to almost zero on the upper section. Hopefully it will improve for the summer season, but there is a very long way to go to restore confidence.

 

[WAB]

I noticed the dire bus/train connections at Betws while staying in Blaenau recently. Several intended trips had to be aborted for this reason. The connections at LLJ to/from Bangor are also poor. Come on TfW, surely you can do better than this? Any visitors from, say, Switzerland would be left shaking their heads in despair.

You'd need line speed upgrades, two-train running etc. to achieve this. The timetable as it stands only just about works with the infrastructure. Rearranging bus schedules is likely to be a non-starter too as it would affect a series of connecting services across North Wales.

 

[izvor]

You'd need line speed upgrades, two-train running etc. to achieve this. The timetable as it stands only just about works with the infrastructure. Rearranging bus schedules is likely to be a non-starter too as it would affect a series of connecting services across North Wales.

I fully realise the constraints on the Conwy Valley line, and that improving this is a matter of investment. But having connections of (for example) 1 minute, between one service that runs every 2 hours, and another that runs every 3 hours, is inexcusable. Connections of this sort need to be robust, and guaranteed, within reason. As a former transport planner I find it hard to believe that this is not achievable with a bit of ingenuity, while not breaking other vital connections elsewhere. Perhaps TfW should get in some Swiss consultants if they can't manage it themselves?

 

[Deafdoggie]

I fully realise the constraints on the Conwy Valley line, and that improving this is a matter of investment. But having connections of (for example) 1 minute, between one service that runs every 2 hours, and another that runs every 3 hours, is inexcusable. Connections of this sort need to be robust, and guaranteed, within reason. As a former transport planner I find it hard to believe that this is not achievable with a bit of ingenuity, while not breaking other vital connections elsewhere. Perhaps TfW should get in some Swiss consultants if they can't manage it themselves?

The trouble is, it can't connect both ways. Does the bus arrive so they can get on the train? Or does the train arrive so they can get on the bus? Or does everyone on both have to sit around for several minutes so people can do both? But then those minutes have eaten into the clockface timetable.
Everyone says it's possible till you ask them to it without needing another train, bus or staff & suddenly they concede it's not possible.

 

[izvor]

The trouble is, it can't connect both ways. Does the bus arrive so they can get on the train? Or does the train arrive so they can get on the bus? Or does everyone on both have to sit around for several minutes so people can do both? But then those minutes have eaten into the clockface timetable.
Everyone says it's possible till you ask them to it without needing another train, bus or staff & suddenly they concede it's not possible.

Fair point, although one of the bus services I was thinking of terminated at Betws, so the on/off connection could, in theory, be built into the stand time. I also accept that the lack of clockface on the CVR is a problem.

But, IMO, Betws ought to be a "transport hub" for the area, ideally sited and accessible, and I got the impression that nobody had actually looked at bus/rail connections. Not checked current timetables though.

 

[WAB]

Fair point, although one of the bus services I was thinking of terminated at Betws, so the on/off connection could, in theory, be built into the stand time. I also accept that the lack of clockface on the CVR is a problem.

But, IMO, Betws ought to be a "transport hub" for the area, ideally sited and accessible, and I got the impression that nobody had actually looked at bus/rail connections. Not checked current timetables though.

I haven't got the train graph to hand for the Conwy Valley line, but turnarounds are pretty tight and slots to cross the North Wales Mainline are not easy to come by. Without knowing which route you were thinking of in particular for the connection, it is difficult to comment on the implication for connections. Untangling it could take quite a bit of expertise!

 

[Russel]

I haven't got the train graph to hand for the Conwy Valley line, but turnarounds are pretty tight and slots to cross the North Wales Mainline are not easy to come by. Without knowing which route you were thinking of in particular for the connection, it is difficult to comment on the implication for connections. Untangling it could take quite a bit of expertise!

There has to be an argument for removing the Junction to Llandudno part of the route then and restoring the shuttle...

 

[Krokodil]

By the way, I noticed that usage of the line is very low, and down to almost zero on the upper section.

I don't know what times you travelled but if you travel on the right trains you will find them to be full and standing between Betws and Llandudno.

There has to be an argument for removing the Junction to Llandudno part of the route then and restoring the shuttle...

So disrupting the existing passengers (most of whom want to go through to Llandudno) to possibly benefit an unknown quantity who might want to catch a bus to Corwen.

 

[Llandudno]

I noticed the dire bus/train connections at Betws while staying in Blaenau recently. Several intended trips had to be aborted for this reason. The connections at LLJ to/from Bangor are also poor. Come on TfW, surely you can do better than this? Any visitors from, say, Switzerland would be left shaking their heads in despair.

By the way, I noticed that usage of the line is very low, and down to almost zero on the upper section. Hopefully it will improve for the summer season, but there is a very long way to go to restore confidence.

If you are travelling between Bangor and Betws you are better off on the T10 bus every 2 hours.

I don't know what times you travelled but if you travel on the right trains you will find them to be full and standing between Betws and Llandudno.


So disrupting the existing passengers (most of whom want to go through to Llandudno) to possibly benefit an unknown quantity who might want to catch a bus to Corwen.

Absolutely, if all Blaenau Ffestiniog trains terminated/started from Llandudno Junction instead of running through to Llandudno you might as well close the Conwy Valley Line and operate an hourly TrawsCymru branded (electric?) bus instead.