Merseyrail Expansion

[Fawkes Cat]

So, is London Paddington for the 'city centre'?

Depends on your definition of London's city centre.

It will be interesting to see what the HS2 station at Old Oak Common is called. And I note from another current thread that tickets to Birmingham Stations aren't valid at Birmingham International...

 

[Jack Hay]

Depends on your definition of London's city centre.

It will be interesting to see what the HS2 station at Old Oak Common is called. And I note from another current thread that tickets to Birmingham Stations aren't valid at Birmingham International...

True, and 'Liverpool stations' tickets aren't valid to Liverpool South Parkway, and 'Manchester stations' are not valid to Manchester Airport - but they are valid to Deansgate and to Salford Central, neither of which includes 'Manchester' in the name. This is thoroughly confusing to passengers who are not ticketing geeks. Simplification is long overdue.

 

[urbophile]

True, and 'Liverpool stations' tickets aren't valid to Liverpool South Parkway, and 'Manchester stations' are not valid to Manchester Airport - but they are valid to Deansgate and to Salford Central, neither of which includes 'Manchester' in the name. This is thoroughly confusing to passengers who are not ticketing geeks. Simplification is long overdue.

There'd be a riot if you added 'Manchester' to the Salford name, wouldn't there? But either all stations within a city should be given the city name, or none of them except the main termini/interchange ones. For Manchester, Piccadilly, Oxford Road and Victoria do just fine. The ticketing thing would be avoided if all cities adopted a zonal system. All tickets to London should be valid anywhere in zone 1; and similarly elsewhere.

PS being a bit pedantic here, but at least tickets from the south or the CLC line should be valid to Liverpool S Parkway since it's en route.

 

[CaramellDansen]

So, is London Paddington for the 'city centre'?

I don't know, I'm not from there. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm focused on what could make sense for Liverpool!

 

[Djgr]

I notice that 'Liverpool Baltic' now appears on the line diagram on the Northern line platforms at Central. That could be encouraging, if slightly confusing because work seems nowhere near starting.

I wonder how long the station name will survive. 'Liverpool Central' makes sense to distinguish it from Birkenhead Central, and to identify the main Merseyrail station in the city. 'Liverpool Lime Street' is of course the main terminus for passengers elsewhere in the country, but 'Lime Street' alone is used on the Wirral line. Moorfields or James Street don't usually get the 'Liverpool' prefix. So why should Baltic? Some countries (eg Italy) make a point of prefixing the city name to the individual station name, for all stations within the city limits. British custom has never been to do that, otherwise we'd have Liverpool Sandhills, Liverpool Kirkdale, Sefton Bootle Oriel Road (!), Knowsley Kirkby etc. If Merseyrail becomes (officially or otherwise) distinct from the national network there would be even less justification for it.

Of course it's inconsistent but it's a much better name than Headbolt Lane! What about Liverpool South Parkway? Shouldn't that really be South Liverpool Parkway?

 

[urbophile]

What a strange comment! Whoever suggested calling Baltic Headbolt Lane!!??? Anyway arguably that should be Kirkby Headbolt Lane.

 

[CaramellDansen]

Anyway arguably that should be Kirkby Headbolt Lane

I'd argue Tower Hill, or Kirkby Tower Hill (to avoid confusion with the other station), would be better. I think using road names should be a thing of the past, or at least avoided when there are other options available.

 

[Djgr]

What a strange comment! Whoever suggested calling Baltic Headbolt Lane!!??? Anyway arguably that should be Kirkby Headbolt Lane.

I meant that the selection of the name Liverpool Baltic as a choice for this station is much better than the choice of Headbolt Lane for THAT station.

With Liverpool Baltic, everyone, whether local or not, has a pretty good idea where it is.

Headbolt Lane, 99% clueless.

 

[BrianW]

Depends on your definition of London's city centre.

It will be interesting to see what the HS2 station at Old Oak Common is called. And I note from another current thread that tickets to Birmingham Stations aren't valid at Birmingham International...

I don't know, I'm not from there. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm focused on what could make sense for Liverpool!

Indeed- what and where is a city centre; does a city, or 'city region', 'finish' at a political boundary; and as you stated upthread, Fawkes cat, what works operationally, and what makes sense, esp to those unfamiliar with places.

I note that London Old Oak Common has a certain LOOC about it; better than smelly London Old Oak ... ;-(
'Central' was a good 'marketing' name (and 'accurate') for not necessarily very central stations served by the Great Central Railway.

 

[Jack Hay]

There'd be a riot if you added 'Manchester' to the Salford name, wouldn't there? But either all stations within a city should be given the city name, or none of them except the main termini/interchange ones. For Manchester, Piccadilly, Oxford Road and Victoria do just fine. The ticketing thing would be avoided if all cities adopted a zonal system. All tickets to London should be valid anywhere in zone 1; and similarly elsewhere.

PS being a bit pedantic here, but at least tickets from the south or the CLC line should be valid to Liverpool S Parkway since it's en route.

You're right about tickets to LSP from the south, so there the problem is different. I was queuing recently to buy a ticket from the machine at Hartford and the passenger in front of me wanted to travel to Liverpool South Parkway, so on the initial 'Frequent Destinations' screen she pressed the button for 'Liverpool Stations'. I realised then that it was the obvious thing do to if you didn't have the ticketing knowledge that we on this forum do. I intervened and saved this passenger a few pounds.

 

[Mr. SW]

Just to keep you up to date...

Images released of new Liverpool railway station

Images of a new Liverpool Baltic station, one of four new stations planned for the city, have been released showing what the new station will look like.

www.railadvent.co.uk

Images of a new £100m Liverpool Baltic station have been released showing what the new station will look like.

Liverpool Baltic is one of four new stations planned for the City by Liverpool City Region Mayor Steve Rotheram.

Mayor Steve Rotheram has committed to completing the Liverpool Baltic project by the end of 2027.

The other three new stations will be at Daresbury in Halton, Woodchurch on the Wirral, and Carr Mill in St Helens, with work on those starting by 2030.

Also...

Liverpool Baltic Merseyrail station: Virtual reality to show plans

The virtual reality walkthrough shows what the new station will look like for the first time.

www.bbc.co.uk

Rail passengers will get chance to see what a planned £100m railway station could look like using virtual reality.

The Liverpool Baltic Merseyrail station, which metro mayor Steve Rotheram previously said could be in use by 2027, was announced in 2022.

Work could be under way in 2025 and new designs have been unveiled ahead of a public consultation on the scheme.

A virtual reality "walkthrough" will allow the public to imagine themselves inside the station.

And...

Futuristic vision of new Bank Quay station revealed - with pedestrianised streets

GRAND plans to build a new Warrington Bank Quay station will change Warrington town centre forever a new report states.

www.warringtonguardian.co.uk

GRAND plans to build a new Warrington Bank Quay station will change Warrington town centre forever a new report states.

The station would become the only hub station for the new Northern Powerhouse line, taking passengers to the likes of Manchester, Liverpool and Leeds quicker than ever.

The report, which will be considered by councillors next week, maps out how this will affect the town centre - calling the changes 'catalytic'.

It would see more pedestrian links created and use pedestrian bridges over the Mersey to use currently neglected land at Arpley.

Enjoy.

 

[Northerngirl]

Wouldn't a Warrington hub make more sense to be built where the two lines currently cross eachother?

 

[WAO]

Where does "sense" come into it when one is planning an architecturally iconic building for gullible electors and the nearby property developers? Coffee shops and designer boutiques, yes, but a minibus shuttle to the (actual) railway halt/s half a mile away should suffice. The best customers will come by car anyway.

The new Bradford proposal springs to mind.

Warrington BQ's now apocryphal NPR link to Liverpool really depended on HS2, RIP. One would have thought that its justification would have at least equally prompted the electrification of the CLC route. Neill Scales of Merseyrail said IIRC that Warrington was the biggest market Merseyrail wasn't in.

WAO

 

[Meerkat]

Just to keep you up to date...

Images released of new Liverpool railway station

Images of a new Liverpool Baltic station, one of four new stations planned for the city, have been released showing what the new station will look like.

www.railadvent.co.uk

Also...

Liverpool Baltic Merseyrail station: Virtual reality to show plans

The virtual reality walkthrough shows what the new station will look like for the first time.

www.bbc.co.uk

And...

Futuristic vision of new Bank Quay station revealed - with pedestrianised streets

GRAND plans to build a new Warrington Bank Quay station will change Warrington town centre forever a new report states.

www.warringtonguardian.co.uk

Enjoy.

I’m loving this bit after some relevant official didn’t agree with his optimistic opening date.

He said: “Thankfully staff and officers don’t decide what happens in the Liverpool City Region, it’s the directly elected mayor and that happens to be me at the moment and I’ll be the one who decides on that."

Being elected gives you the power to overcome engineering reality!

 

[Jack Hay]

I’m loving this bit after some relevant official didn’t agree with his optimistic opening date.

Being elected gives you the power to overcome engineering reality!

Yes, that remark is a real gem, quite typical of elected regional politicians. They imagine they have more power than they do and they overlook national bodies such as Network Rail, which will have the final say on matters like this. Mayor Burnham behaves similarly, as if the Manchester rail network - which handles long distance trains and freight - is his to control.

 

[Almyle503]

I meant that the selection of the name Liverpool Baltic as a choice for this station is much better than the choice of Headbolt Lane for THAT station.

With Liverpool Baltic, everyone, whether local or not, has a pretty good idea where it is.

Headbolt Lane, 99%

I meant that the selection of the name Liverpool Baltic as a choice for this station is much better than the choice of Headbolt Lane for THAT station.

With Liverpool Baltic, everyone, whether local or not, has a pretty good idea where it is.

Headbolt Lane, 99% clueless.

I don’t like Headbolt Lane either but Liverpool Baltic kinda bothers me as well. Why not call it Baltic Trianlge since…well…that’s the name of the area. I’d even accept Baltic on its own. I feel like sticking Liverpool in front of it makes it out to be some sort of main station for the city even though it would be less significant than Moorfields. Edit: I just realised you already mentioned this…apologies.

 

[childwallblues]

Of course it's inconsistent but it's a much better name than Headbolt Lane! What about Liverpool South Parkway? Shouldn't that really be South Liverpool Parkway?

Your thoughts were discussed many moons ago before the stations. Now that they are people know what they are called.
Northern trains to/from Headbolt Lane interestingly run through four counties Merseysde, Greater Manchester, West Yorkshire and Lancashire before they reach their destination at Blackburn so the desination appears on a lot of station PIS.

 

[CaramellDansen]

And...

Futuristic vision of new Bank Quay station revealed - with pedestrianised streets

GRAND plans to build a new Warrington Bank Quay station will change Warrington town centre forever a new report states.

www.warringtonguardian.co.uk

I hope this work won't make the Lower Level platforms infeasible, otherwise the Fiddler's Ferry route will basically be doomed in regards to future passenger use.

One would have thought that its justification would have at least equally prompted the electrification of the CLC route.

While the CLC route is in dire need of electrification, it's my opinion it also needs work to accommodate stopping services. Either that or electrify the Fiddler's Ferry route too and run stoppers down there, easing the potential increase of stopper services on the CLC route while also serving the superior Widnes South station (right in the heart of the commercial district) and stations between Edge Hill and Halebank (what the hell was the logic in closing them?? they're well inside the city!!! the south of liverpool is so under-served.)

Neill Scales of Merseyrail said IIRC that Warrington was the biggest market Merseyrail wasn't in.

I agree fully! Heck, the Fiddler's Ferry route even follows the Mersey basically along its entire route; what's more Mersey-rail than that? If Chester and Southport are on Merseyrail, Warrington should be.



I hope my pitches to save the Fiddler's Ferry line aren't too subtle!

Addendum
I can't believe I missed this: They're removing a railway in their "rail improvement"
In what world is this better? This country is killing our railways and we're sitting by, letting it happen.
The "cycle path" between the blue lines is the current Fiddler's Ferry line.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I hope this work won't make the Lower Level platforms infeasible, otherwise the Fiddler's Ferry route will basically be doomed in regards to future passenger use.


While the CLC route is in dire need of electrification, it's my opinion it also needs work to accommodate stopping services. Either that or electrify the Fiddler's Ferry route too and run stoppers down there, easing the potential increase of stopper services on the CLC route while also serving the superior Widnes South station (right in the heart of the commercial district) and stations between Edge Hill and Halebank (what the hell was the logic in closing them?? they're well inside the city!!! the south of liverpool is so under-served.)


I agree fully! Heck, the Fiddler's Ferry route even follows the Mersey basically along its entire route; what's more Mersey-rail than that? If Chester and Southport are on Merseyrail, Warrington should be.



I hope my pitches to save the Fiddler's Ferry line aren't too subtle!

Addendum
I can't believe I missed this: They're removing a railway in their "rail improvement"
In what world is this better? This country is killing our railways and we're sitting by, letting it happen.
The "cycle path" between the blue lines is the current Fiddler's Ferry line.

The only thing with Fiddler's Ferry vs CLC for Merseyrail to Warrington is that the line continuing across Latchford Viaduct is the only reasonably priced option for NPR or at least a Liverpool to Manchester version, and if you want those south Liverpool stations opening with a reasonable frequency, you could do with the intercities out of the way.

 

[CaramellDansen]

The only thing with Fiddler's Ferry vs CLC for Merseyrail to Warrington is that the line continuing across Latchford Viaduct is the only reasonably priced option for NPR or at least a Liverpool to Manchester version, and if you want those south Liverpool stations opening with a reasonable frequency, you could do with the intercities out of the way.

Are those "intercities" the trains on the NPR route? If so, surely they would use the fast lanes along the Halebank to Edge Hill section, allowing stopper services to use the slow lanes... and preferably a single-track between Halebank and Garston docks for freight traffic (my crayonista guesstimating seems to think one fits to the south of the current 4-track layout between those places)

Given the wibbly-wobbly nature of the line to the west of Warrington Bank Quay, would a straighter route not be more preferable to intercity traffic and this route used for stoppers? The CLC route is pretty straight, with exception given to the bizarre Warrington Central curve.

What would this route, if set as an intercity line, do when it reaches Broadheath (George Richards Way)? Viaduct over the whole street? Remove the street? Where would the route go after here to get to central Manchester?

Additionally: the majority of services along the CLC Liv-Manc route are already expresses. Adding passing loops and extra platforms at choice stations to enforce priority to expresses and ensure stops without blocking the line for stoppers would be a massive improvement, especially if many stopping services between Liverpool and Warrington could be offset onto the FF line.

 

[Northerngirl]

Addendum
I can't believe I missed this: They're removing a railway in their "rail improvement"
In what world is this better? This country is killing our railways and we're sitting by, letting it happen.
The "cycle path" between the blue lines is the current Fiddler's Ferry line.

Yet another proposal that we can hope stays just that, what's the point of spending a fortune on a station to not improve its connectivity

 

[danbarjon]

Given that there is already a Liverpool to Warrington stopper by Northern how easy would it be for a battery 777 to do the same route from Hunts Cross to Warrington (and could they use the sidings at Warrington Central) and to Liverpool (either Central or Lime Street)

 

[Northerngirl]

It would make alot of sense to do that, the battery units are already being used for headbolt Lane, so running them the other side of the city would be ideal

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would make alot of sense to do that, the battery units are already being used for headbolt Lane, so running them the other side of the city would be ideal

It absolutely would not. The CLC line has a massive punctuality problem and has had for years, and the last thing we want to do is import that onto Merseyrail which operates quite tight margins.

Under only one set of circumstances should Merseyrail venture beyond Hunts Cross (unless it's to Gateacre) - if there are buffer stops installed at Warrington Central. Which is only really feasible if Northern Powerhouse Rail is built to replace it.

 

[CaramellDansen]

The FF line being Merseyrail stoppers (OLE 777s) and the CLC line being upgraded for NPR (passing loops, platform loops and OLE electrification) is, in my opinion, the superior choice based on the alignment of the tracks and their current usage purposes.

Whether the FF line terminates at Lime Street (congested, needs capacity upgrade) or Central (congested, needs capacity upgrade) is... an annoying and tedious question. No matter, since both needed upgrading years ago.

 

[danbarjon]

It would make alot of sense to do that, the battery units are already being used for headbolt Lane, so running them the other side of the city would be ideal

I thought that as well, I do believe that as well running to Warrington would be a great decision for the future.

 

[daodao]

It absolutely would not. The CLC line has a massive punctuality problem and has had for years, and the last thing we want to do is import that onto Merseyrail which operates quite tight margins.

Under only one set of circumstances should Merseyrail venture beyond Hunts Cross (unless it's to Gateacre) - if there are buffer stops installed at Warrington Central. Which is only really feasible if Northern Powerhouse Rail is built to replace it.

I agree. Extending Merseyrail east of Hunt's Cross to Warrington Central would create many problems and impair existing connectivity. I support extending Merseyrail beyond Hunt's Cross to terminate at Gateacre, with the ex-CLC line via Warrington Central electrified at 25kV AC as part of Network Rail.

 

[Tremzinho]

It absolutely would not. The CLC line has a massive punctuality problem and has had for years, and the last thing we want to do is import that onto Merseyrail which operates quite tight margins.

Under only one set of circumstances should Merseyrail venture beyond Hunts Cross (unless it's to Gateacre) - if there are buffer stops installed at Warrington Central. Which is only really feasible if Northern Powerhouse Rail is built to replace it.

Extending to Gateacre deserves serious consideration, I noticed that the Lib Dem candidate in this month's Metro Mayor election was proposing it, which seems to be the first time the idea has been seriously mentioned in decades.

Another option could be to extend Merseyrail to Widnes, which would no doubt be popular with the current Metro Mayor as it finally brings Halton into Merseyrail.

You could remove mainline services off this section by rebuilding the eastern section of the Widnes branch to connect the Fiddler’s Ferry line to the CLC route. Rebuilding the station at Widnes South would also really improve connectivity for the town.

The Merseyrail line could be truncated at Widnes, or ideally continue on to Warrington as there would be less opportunity for delays over the remaining 4 miles of joint running.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The FF line being Merseyrail stoppers (OLE 777s) and the CLC line being upgraded for NPR (passing loops, platform loops and OLE electrification) is, in my opinion, the superior choice based on the alignment of the tracks and their current usage purposes.

Totally disagree. The CLC runs closer to the centre of the settlements it serves, whereas the FF is rather peripheral just running along the river.

You could remove mainline services off this section by rebuilding the eastern section of the Widnes branch to connect the Fiddler’s Ferry line to the CLC route. Rebuilding the station at Widnes South would also really improve connectivity for the town.

The Merseyrail line could be truncated at Widnes, or ideally continue on to Warrington as there would be less opportunity for delays over the remaining 4 miles of joint running.

Absolutely no inter-running between Merseyrail and any Castlefield service (other than the incidental bits around Southport and South Parkway) should ever be contemplated. It would destroy the system's punctuality beyond repair. Merseyrail should remain fully segregated - like Metrolink, any service it takes over it should do so in full.

 

[danbarjon]

Extending to Gateacre deserves serious consideration, I noticed that the Lib Dem candidate in this month's Metro Mayor election was proposing it, which seems to be the first time the idea has been seriously mentioned in decades.

Another option could be to extend Merseyrail to Widnes, which would no doubt be popular with the current Metro Mayor as it finally brings Halton into Merseyrail.

You could remove mainline services off this section by rebuilding the eastern section of the Widnes branch to connect the Fiddler’s Ferry line to the CLC route. Rebuilding the station at Widnes South would also really improve connectivity for the town.

The Merseyrail line could be truncated at Widnes, or ideally continue on to Warrington as there would be less opportunity for delays over the remaining 4 miles of joint running.

Well to be completely honest it finally would bring Widnes into the Liverpool City Region as nobody here wants to be in it as it doesn't benefit us...