Potential up to 2,000 job losses at Alstom Derby

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not to mention none of the four plants in the UK make trams(!)

Derby did build trams for the Strasbourg network in France.
That was in 1998, under ADtranz, prior to Bombardier.

 

[Trainman40083]

Derby did build trams for the Strasbourg network in France.
That was in 1998, under ADtranz, prior to Bombardier.

Did they build the first batch of Nottingham trams too?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Did they build the first batch of Nottingham trams too?

Yes indeed, and they are still operating.
15 trams built by Bombardier in Derby around 2004, and based on the design of the trams in Nantes (according to Wiki).
Later fleet expansion at NET was with (old) Alstom Citadis trams built in France.


This City AM report on the closure issues at Derby is helpfully illustrated with an Alstom EMU.
However it's a double-deck SNCF Coradia unit in TER Centre-Val de Loire colours.
Not a type of train likely to be built at Derby.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/oth...09e8d48f416d9376b3c104073d94&ei=28#fullscreen

Union leaders have made urgent calls for help to secure thousands of jobs at the UK’s biggest rail assembly site after production lines stopped because of a lack of orders.
Alstom said after 10 months of discussions with the Government over work for its Derby site, it had run out of time.

 

[Invincible]

Ah OK understood, just thought the 777 esqe interior would be ideal for SE metro

The tender process should take several factors before awarding a contract

I see the London tram order for 24 trams to replace Bombardier trams is to be announced in July, so perhaps Derby might get it, provided they meet the factors?.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Companies making over 19 redundant have to notify the Insolvency Service in advance (called form HR1) 20-99 employees being made redundant need 30 days notice, for 100 or more 45 days notice.

The Insolvency Service is part of Government department of Business, (not Transport), so they will now be aware and can decide if we need the factory as a strategic industry or if they are happy to let around 2000 jobs and another about 15000 in supply chain potentially be affected.

Realistically either got to give Derby a refurb contract rapidly, or place some orders for 80-150 vehicles (but if they do that probably got to throw order at Hitachi, Siemens and CAF too to stop them squealing about unfair awards). Theoretically could probably order more 345s for Old Oak Extension, perhaps more 720s, then top up LNER order with CAF, some tube trains for Bakerloo from Siemens, and some 807s from Hitachi which could be rented to open access operator. But this isn't a thread to go off topic and speculate.

GA have stated they have 20x720s more than they need currently so no point building anymore. Reality is without more 25kV electrification there is no need for any more AC EMUS.

 

[Chester1]

Except for all the extruded and welded sections that get imported from China, and all the non process work get gets out shopped to companies like Promex, or the production of wiring looms that used to handled in house, that then got split out to RoC then told to Mothersons who’s already shut down their Derby site and the absolute mountains of electronics and power components that all get bought in from the mainland.
Litchurch Lane is and was an assembly site, the fact they assembled a bit more and had more processes on there including aluminium welding doesn’t mean the whole train is / was made there.


But that could be on site at Central Rivers, down at Ilford where other work has been done or at Widnes which is much better set up for refurb work and has much lower operating costs than Litchurch Lane.

How much of that work can be done at Widnes? Alstom didn't buy Bombardier for Derby and the Aventra. Both have caused Alstom a lot of problems. Returning to their pre takeover plan of a facility in Widnes for refurbishment but capable of assembly might work well if they can do HS2 work without breaching the contract. If Alstom expand Widnes to its maximum (about twice current size) that would be more appropriate to the boom-bust British market than a six production line site.

The key bit at Derby is design work but apart from monorail units what of that is left? Alstom are not asking the government for support to launch a new platform at Derby. They essentially want a monopoly on EMU contracts for two years to keep the Aventra going. What R&D will Alstom be doing in the UK?

The mothballing might be a negotiating tactic. There must be staff that they cannot afford to lose for two years incase they are not interested in returning in 2026. Are they going to be paying a fortune to keep hundreds of workers on a retainer for two years?

Does anyone know if Alstom own the freehold of Litchurch Lane? That must be a significant factor because its probably worth in the low hundreds of millions. Its a vast, well-connected site within the built of area of a fairly prosperous city.

 

[Kite159]

GA have stated they have 20x720s more than they need currently so no point building anymore. Reality is without more 25kV electrification there is no need for any more AC EMUS.

And the only operator which might order more AC EMUs is ScotRail to replace their BR era 318/320s which has gone quiet.

The government can't simply give Alstom a contract to build more trains as the other operators will call foul. Give it another couple of years and CAF in Wales could be in a similar boat regarding lack of future orders meaning the factory gets downsized.

 

[Energy]

Litchurch Lane is and was an assembly site, the fact they assembled a bit more and had more processes on there including aluminium welding doesn’t mean the whole train is / was made there.

Agreed, Derby's first work was assembling carriages from kits made in Detroit by the Pullman Company. It has always been an assembly plant with a site big enough for some component manufacture and design on-site.

Cynically, and it definitely will be a factor with a General Election coming, if Derby fails the Tories can kiss goodbye to pretty much all of their East Midlands seats.

It feels like a repeat of the coal mines, where people's anger isn't necessarily from the closure of the coal mines but the lack of available employment that followed.

Everyone knew that Derby was going to run out of orders and it wasn't an ideal site, what's needed is for the site to be redeveloped with other manufacturers or warehouses so there are jobs for the workers.

Given that they are already in the mire... After 30+ years working in Whitehall my expectation is that Alstom will be given just enough work to push the bad news back until after the election....

I'm not so certain the 'probably 345s' order will materialise. It's a factory that Alstom doesn't want and an order the current government doesn't want to place.

Alstom doesn't need to bend backward for a small order of 5 9-car trains when in a few years, when TfL really needs them, they can assemble them at Widnes from the 345 spare parts catalogue, current suppliers like IFE (doors) and Alstom's other sites.

 

[Trainman40083]

Interesting on Central News at 1800 tonight, two separate presenters spoke about the Lichfield Lane plant. One even read out a statement from Alstom "Litchurch Lane" .

 

[Energy]

Interesting on Central News at 1800 tonight, two separate presenters spoke about the Lichfield Lane plant. One even read out a statement from Alstom "Litchurch Lane" .

It is Litchurch Lane, not Lichfield Lane.

 

[Trainman40083]

It is Litchurch Lane, not Lichfield Lane.

I know that, you know that. Clearly two Central News presenters didn't..

 

[Dan G]

Except for all the extruded and welded sections that get imported from China, and all the non process work get gets out shopped to companies like Promex, or the production of wiring looms that used to handled in house, that then got split out to RoC then told to Mothersons who’s already shut down their Derby site and the absolute mountains of electronics and power components that all get bought in from the mainland.
Litchurch Lane is and was an assembly site, the fact they assembled a bit more and had more processes on there including aluminium welding doesn’t mean the whole train is / was made there.

The aluminium parts for the Aventra bodyshells and the steel crash structures in the cabs were manufactured in the UK; perhaps you're think of Hitachi? Structural IET parts are imported from Japan.

If Motherson Derby has closed it closed with the rest of the manufacturing at Litchurch Lane; all the wiring looms, control cabinets and desks etc for Aventra were built in Derby.

 

[Nym]

The aluminium parts for the Aventra bodyshells and the steel crash structures in the cabs were manufactured in the UK; perhaps you're think of Hitachi? Structural IET parts are imported from Japan.

If Motherson Derby has closed it closed with the rest of the manufacturing at Litchurch Lane; all the wiring looms, control cabinets and desks etc for Aventra were built in Derby.

I have it on extremely good authority that Motherson Derby closed in early February.

 

[Dan G]

Yes, when they finished building parts for Aventra.

 

[Nym]

Yes, when they finished building parts for Aventra.

So as I'd said.

split out to RoC then told to Mothersons who’s already shut down their Derby site

So... where's the correction here? (Already is in the past, and Feb is in the past.)

Also, to add to that. Not all the wiring looms were built in Derby. There are significant numbers of them that were manufactured in Northampton.

 

[Energy]

perhaps you're think of Hitachi? Structural IET parts are imported from Japan.

Hitachi is a complete body with internal fitout in the UK. Derby is flat aluminium extrusions which are bolted together at Litchurch Lane to form the shell.

 

[Trainman40083]

Hitachi is a complete body with internal fitout in the UK. Derby is flat aluminium extrusions which are bolted together at Litchurch Lane to form the shell.

Are the Class 810s amongst the IEPs with most UK content. Imagine after the current builds only potential customers for IEP would be Cross Country or ScotRail, and both seem unlikely. Maybe TPE

 

[DanNCL]

Perhaps you're think of Hitachi? Structural IET parts are imported from Japan.

Previously that was case not anymore, Newton Aycliffe can now produce them themselves.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Are the Class 810s amongst the IEPs with most UK content. Imagine after the current builds only potential customers for IEP would be Cross Country or ScotRail, and both seem unlikely. Maybe TPE

Previously that was case not anymore, Newton Aycliffe can now produce them themselves.

While that is basically true, Hitachi is importing around half of the 805/807 bodies for the Avanti order from Japan.
The same sort of situation may apply to EMR's 810s, to satisfy production targets.
The FirstGroup 802s were built in Italy, which had the curious effect of the UK-sourced components being shipped to Pistoia for the build.
We don't know how the HS2 order will be sourced.

 

[Energy]

We don't know how the HS2 order will be sourced.

Initial announcement was bogies at Alstom Crewe, body and initial fit-out at Newton Aycliffe and they'll be transported to Derby where the bogies, electrics, interiors and any other components would be fitted. The order seems slightly strange as the transport from Newton Aycliffe to Derby would have to be by road.

If Derby is closed I'd expect the bogies still done in Crewe with the body and bogies attached at Newton Aycliffe and enough work done there to get them into a draggable state. Then they could be dragged to Widnes for interior and electrics fitout.

 

[Invincible]

If Derby is closed I'd expect the bogies still done in Crewe with the body and bogies attached at Newton Aycliffe and enough work done there to get them into a draggable state. Then they could be dragged to Widnes for interior and electrics fitout.

PM sympathises with ‘anxious’ Hitachi but reveals 'strong order book' across UK

The Prime Minister has sympathised with what he described as an ‘anxious’ time for workers at Newton Aycliffe’s Hitachi.

www.thenorthernecho.co.uk

Richi Sunak says there will be lots of new train orders, (but no timescale which will help UK factories.
Most probably all train factories could close in the UK.
HS2 trains could be imported from Japan, or maybe China will be cheaper?.
Other countries are actively supporting their train factories whereas the UK Government are now running them down.

 

[D Williams]

PM sympathises with ‘anxious’ Hitachi but reveals 'strong order book' across UK

The Prime Minister has sympathised with what he described as an ‘anxious’ time for workers at Newton Aycliffe’s Hitachi.

www.thenorthernecho.co.uk

Richi Sunak says there will be lots of new train orders, (but no timescale which will help UK factories.
Most probably all train factories could close in the UK.
HS2 trains could be imported from Japan, or maybe China will be cheaper?.
Other countries are actively supporting their train factories whereas the UK Government are now running them down.

Nothing new here. Same old Tories; buy it where it is cheapest in the short term, pay the price in the future. There are always lots of highly skilled people hanging in cupboards with their legs going ready to spring into new jobs....aren't there?

The chickens hatched during the darling Margaret's regime continue to come home to roost. Get rid of all of that nasty industry and lets rely on the sharp City boys and the dole. Who would start a career in engineering manufacturing today?

 

[Mikey C]

Nothing new here. Same old Tories; buy it where it is cheapest in the short term, pay the price in the future. There are always lots of highly skilled people hanging in cupboards with their legs going ready to spring into new jobs....aren't there?

The chickens hatched during the darling Margaret's regime continue to come home to roost. Get rid of all of that nasty industry and lets rely on the sharp City boys and the dole. Who would start a career in engineering manufacturing today?

We currently have more train assembly plants than we had 20 years ago. That's part of the problem.

 

[D365]

Who would start a career in engineering manufacturing today?

Nobody in their right mind… err, oops.

 

[RealTrains07]

We currently have more train assembly plants than we had 20 years ago. That's part of the problem.

Exactly and new train orders were always going to run low eventually. It’s just the way it is.

The more trains we replace now. The longer the wait will be for new work in the future. Its why full fleet replacements are problematic and are not necessarily always a good thing.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Good opportunities in aerospace and defence (Derby has Rolls Royce, after all).
Automotive somewhat iffy with the electric transformation disrupting the industry.
Telecoms, energy, mining etc all fast growth industries.
It's not all gloom and doom in manufacturing.

 

[HSTEd]

PM sympathises with ‘anxious’ Hitachi but reveals 'strong order book' across UK

The Prime Minister has sympathised with what he described as an ‘anxious’ time for workers at Newton Aycliffe’s Hitachi.

www.thenorthernecho.co.uk

Richi Sunak says there will be lots of new train orders, (but no timescale which will help UK factories.
Most probably all train factories could close in the UK.
HS2 trains could be imported from Japan, or maybe China will be cheaper?.
Other countries are actively supporting their train factories whereas the UK Government are now running them down.

We have way too much train manufacturing capacity though.

We have to run down the factories because there is no sensible way to keep four production lines running.
The idea of ordering trains solely to keep a factory with no economic purpose open is an insane waste of money given the financial position of the railway.

 

[Invincible]

We have way too much train manufacturing capacity though.

We have to run down the factories because there is no sensible way to keep four production lines running.
The idea of ordering trains solely to keep a factory with no economic purpose open is an insane waste of money given the financial position of the railway.

The Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles (CAF) factory in Wales is a fraction of the size of Derby, CAF could easily close it and move production back to Spain.

CAF

www.cityofnewport.wales

Siemens Goole is a bit bigger,

80% of new Piccadilly line trains will be assembled in Yorkshire, Siemens Mobility confirms

Siemens Mobility is investing up to £200m in a new state of the art rail village in Goole, East Riding of Yorkshire The train factory onsite will produce up to 80% of new London Underground Piccadilly line trains in the UK, up from 50% The whole rail village will employ up to 700 people and...

news.siemens.co.uk

but no guarantee the factory will remain and any production moves back to Vienna if it does not get more UK orders?

“Subject to long-term certainty on Government funding, the factory in Goole is also expected to deliver a replacement fleet for the Bakerloo line, which at more than 50 years old is the oldest train in passenger service in the UK.”

The first Piccadilly line train has been delivered from Goole’s sister factory in Vienna, and has been undergoing extensive testing by Siemens Mobility’s engineers at our test track and climate chamber in Germany

There is a chance all train production could cease under a "bust", and the UK will become an importer when the next "boom" of contracts are placed

 

[Meerkat]

How big a deal is Derby closing? Its a central location with a lot of industry in the region, and we are always told that there is a shortage of skilled labour, particularly in engineering. And its a great redevelopment site that would create jobs.
Less of an issue than Newport or Goole or Newton Aycliffe?
Personally I think they were doomed once the Aventra went so badly. "we must keep British manufacturing" is a much more sustainable position if they don't turn out rubbish.

There is a chance all train production could cease under a "bust", and the UK will become an importer when the next "boom" of contracts are placed

Didn't the last boom lead to two or three new assembly plants, suggesting the next boom would be more likely to do that than lead to imports

 

[HSTEd]

The Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles (CAF) factory in Wales is a fraction of the size of Derby, CAF could easily close it and move production back to Spain.

CAF

www.cityofnewport.wales

Siemens Goole is a bit bigger,

80% of new Piccadilly line trains will be assembled in Yorkshire, Siemens Mobility confirms

Siemens Mobility is investing up to £200m in a new state of the art rail village in Goole, East Riding of Yorkshire The train factory onsite will produce up to 80% of new London Underground Piccadilly line trains in the UK, up from 50% The whole rail village will employ up to 700 people and...

news.siemens.co.uk

but no guarantee the factory will remain and any production moves back to Vienna if it does not get more UK orders?

Ultimately under the market model there is no real reason for any manufacturer to build trains in the UK without handsome subsidies for the UK Government. Any plant that is built will be idle much of the time unless the government is willing to tolerate a privately held monopoly on manufacture.
This is the decision that has to be made, pour money into uneconomic facilities to make trains we don't actually need, abandon a free market in rolling stock procurement or abandon UK train manufacturing.

There is a chance all train production could cease under a "bust", and the UK will become an importer when the next "boom" of contracts are placed

We are already an importer, see the various Stadler products et al.
Trying to artificially force a market in rolling stock without enough demand for a market is not the answer.