Why Are People Still Testing and Subsequently Isolating With Mild or Asymptomatic Covid?

[43066]

I will defend @sjpowermac here by pointing out that it is clear @Bayum has got confused about the premise of the thread and therefore anyone involved in the debate may be holding off until the confusion has been clarified?

Also I will point out that not replying to a particular member does not imply agreement. At the end of the day people may wish to reply to one particular remark and not another and you can't read too much into that.

If that’s the case you might expect @Bayum would clarify their comments, but they have so far not chosen to do so. Even if done in error you would think a teacher who has made quite a serious allegation about their colleagues and those working at other schools wouldn’t wish to leave that uncorrected.

 

[yorkie]

To be fair they've not been online in the past ~23 hours.

 

[sjpowermac]

If that’s the case you might expect @Bayum would clarify their comments, but they have so far not chosen to do so. Even if done in error you would think a teacher who has made quite a serious allegation about their colleagues and those working at other schools wouldn’t wish to leave that uncorrected.

My main objection to the post I replied to was the part about ‘a fellow teacher gets a weeks supply work’. To be fair to the poster, they were actually very clever in their use of English and stopped short of directly accusing staff of being off to give work to colleagues, but it did strike me as being a dig at my own profession.

Would you have responded had the poster replaced ‘teacher’ with ‘train driver’?

Regarding testing, as I’ve mentioned previously, I worked in person in school from May 2020 onwards. Whilst testing was never mandatory in school it was certainly pushed. January 2021 to February 2021 (lockdown 3.0) there was on site testing in school for staff and students and again, it was pushed very strongly and so I went along with it.

From March 2021-June 2021 I have to admit I lost track of what we were supposed to do and by that stage I was fully vaccinated (and my colleagues had all had the opportunity to be) so I’ll be honest and say that whilst I tried to remember to do the test I sometimes forgot.

Since July 2021 I’ve not done a test and I’m not clear as to why people are still doing them.

Hope that helps and clears things up.

 

[Dai Corner]

My main objection to the post I replied to was the part about ‘a fellow teacher gets a weeks supply work’. To be fair to the poster, they were actually very clever in their use of English and stopped short of directly accusing staff of being off to give work to colleagues, but it did strike me as being a dig at my own profession.

I didn't intend to imply that somebody took (possibly unnecessary) sick leave so his/her friend could get paid to cover from him/her. Rather that the rules that children must not be left unsupervised and teachers cannot be forced to give up their free periods to cover absent colleagues ensure that a supply teacher will get some work. An advantage to the teaching profession as a whole which their trade unions have negotiated with employers.

In other industries work will be left undone, people will work harder, customers will wait longer etc.

 

[sjpowermac]

I didn't intend to imply that somebody took (possibly unnecessary) sick leave so his/her friend could get paid to cover from him/her. Rather that the rules that children must not be left unsupervised and teachers cannot be forced to give up their free periods to cover absent colleagues ensure that a supply teacher will get some work. An advantage to the teaching profession as a whole which their trade unions have negotiated with employers.

In other industries work will be left undone, people will work harder, customers will wait longer etc.

Well I must have imagined all of the ‘emergency’ cover lessons that I’ve done, particularly over the course of the past year.

I think you will find it’s a legal requirement that students are not left unsupervised. What would you rather have happen, that children are sent home?

If you think that teaching is such an easy job and seemingly a slackers charter, why not train and get a slice of the action yourself? Then come back and tell us all how you’ve got on?

 

[43066]

My main objection to the post I replied to was the part about ‘a fellow teacher gets a weeks supply work’. To be fair to the poster, they were actually very clever in their use of English and stopped short of directly accusing staff of being off to give work to colleagues, but it did strike me as being a dig at my own profession.

Okay thanks for clarifying. I was flagging that the original suggestion was from elsewhere, I don’t know enough about the industry to have a view on the supply teacher comment, and I see you have now expanded on the point.

Would you have responded had the poster replaced ‘teacher’ with ‘train driver’?

Probably .

From March 2021-June 2021 I have to admit I lost track of what we were supposed to do and by that stage I was fully vaccinated (and my colleagues had all had the opportunity to be) so I’ll be honest and say that whilst I tried to remember to do the test I sometimes forgot.

Since July 2021 I’ve not done a test and I’m not clear as to why people are still doing them.

Hope that helps and clears things up.

Understood. It’s odd that schools seemed so obsessed with testing when teachers are generally healthy working age adults and children are so low risk that it was established that catching Covid is statistically safer for them than being vaccinated against it! I can well understand why you stopped testing.

I imagine some of it was as a result of pressure from the teaching unions? There is a parallel there with what happened on the railway with many “Covid safety” measures being introduced to please the unions.

 

[Dai Corner]

Well I must have imagined all of the ‘emergency’ cover lessons that I’ve done, particularly over the course of the past year.

I think you will find it’s a legal requirement that students are not left unsupervised. What would you rather have happen, that children are sent home?

If you think that teaching is such an easy job and seemingly a slackers charter, why not train and get a slice of the action yourself? Then come back and tell us all how you’ve got on?

That's nice of you to cover voluntarily cover, but you're not obliged to. Im retired now and have no need or intention to work, but two people who've worked for me in non-teaching roles have gone on to train and work as teachers. They're both very happy, I understand.

I have absolutely no idea who is in or out of school and frankly, it’s none of my business.

For someone who has no idea of, and no interest in, the matter you've had a lot to say.

Others working in education who've posted in this thread seem to have had similar experiences to mine.

I will concede there will be some staff at schools who have poor sickness records

I’m a teacher, and actually I think everyone is right to some extent. Yes there are a small minority of staff who have miraculously caught COVID four times,

 

[sjpowermac]

I imagine some of it was as a result of pressure from the teaching unions? There is a parallel there with what happened on the railway with many “Covid safety” measures being introduced to please the unions.

Knowing that the teaching unions are too weak to do anything, the government takes no notice of them.

Certainly many of the measures that the government introduced in schools made no sense at all and simply made life much more difficult for both staff and students. The whole ‘bubble’ concept just made for further massive disruption to the education of far too many.

Just out of interest, what’s the current score on the railway? Is testing still required for things like driver training?

I’m *definitely* not picking fault but on the websites of some TOCs they are claiming that sickness levels are higher than usual, resulting in alterations to the timetable. Is that down to requirements to test for Covid?

That's nice of you to cover voluntarily cover, but you're not obliged to.

Incorrect, yet again. The rule is that teachers should ‘rarely’ cover. Naturally people like your ‘highly regarded’ business manager friend are all over that and often have a very odd idea of rarely. If a teacher is directed to cover for a college, they have no option but to cover, it isn’t voluntary.

Regarding the origin of ‘rarely cover’ that came from a 1998 investigation into teacher workload by management consultants ‘Price Waterhouse Cooper’.

Every single point I’ve made you have ducked and dived. Why not just apologise for your incredibly rude initial remark?

 

[Dai Corner]

Because they can, they won't lose any pay, they won't be criticised in their back-to-work interview or performance review, and a fellow teacher gets a week's supply work.

Which part of this do you feel is untrue and should be apologised for?

Incorrect, yet again. The rule is that teachers should ‘rarely’ cover. Naturally people like your ‘highly regarded’ business manager friend are all over that and often have a very odd idea of rarely. If a teacher is directed to cover for a college, they have no option but to cover, it isn’t voluntary.

You implied that you covered frequently, not rarely. You're not obliged to do so that. We're discussing schools, not colleges. Are you a schoolteacher or a college lecturer?

 

[43066]

Just out of interest, what’s the current score on the railway? Is testing still required for things like driver training?

Testing was only ever “required” for training bubbles, and even then it was only done on an honesty basis, there was no need to provide physical proof of a test. That has completely gone everywhere now as far as I know. Certainly where I am it went into the bin a few months back, along with all other residual measures. Not a moment too soon in my view!

I’m *definitely* not picking fault but on the websites of some TOCs they are claiming that sickness levels are higher than usual, resulting in alterations to the timetable. Is that down to requirements to test for Covid?

Definitely not down to testing requirements per se as Covid sickness is now treated the same as any other absence, so there’s no benefit to claiming a positive Covid test over and above any other type of sickness. It’ll be down to a combination of genuine sickness, no doubt including symptomatic Covid cases, and the poor industrial relations climate. Such is the state of things on the railway I’d also take the “high levels of sickness” claims with a pinch of salt. TOCs are keen to shift focus off the fact they don’t actually employ enough staff in the first place .

 

[sjpowermac]

Which part of this do you feel is untrue and should be apologised for?

You implied that you covered frequently, not rarely. You're not obliged to do so that. We're discussing schools, not colleges. Are you a schoolteacher or a college lecturer?

In schools the rule is ‘cover rarely’. Here’s a link for you:

Cover | National Education Union

The STPCD requires teachers to cover “rarely, and only in circumstances that are not foreseeable". Asking teachers to cover in other circumstances, such as for planned absences, is unacceptable.

neu.org.uk

The School Teachers Pay and Conditions Document (STPCD) states: “Teachers should be required to provide cover only rarely, and only in circumstances that are not foreseeable (this does not apply to teachers who are employed wholly or mainly for the purpose of providing such cover).”

I’ve made the point that schools have some pretty creative ways of interpreting that and that my school has required staff to cover regularly, each week at several points in the past year or so. From what you’ve put, it doesn’t seem that you were working in a school during the pandemic, so how do you know what anyone has been required to do?

You were clearly playing to the ‘sack the lot of them’ gallery and the result has been that you’ve shown a huge lack of knowledge. You’ve also shown that you are happy to bad mouth your former colleagues, when in fact you later admitted that you had no idea as to whether they had been absent without good cause.

It wasn’t just me who thought your initial comment was below the belt, several other people who work in education also questioned your judgment.

I suspect there will be staff in all sectors who take days off when they are not entitled to and teaching will be no different. What you did though was to make a flippant comment that heavily implied staff were taking time off to give work to colleagues.

I’ve actually quite enjoyed speaking to you, it has been a real eye opener that someone can so happily be so toxic towards people that they have worked with.

On a final note, I’m curious as to why your ‘highly regarded’ business manager friend allowed a situation to develop where staff absences were such a problem. What solution did he recommend? What solution would you recommend?

Testing was only ever “required” for training bubbles, and even then it was only done on an honesty basis, there was no need to provide physical proof of a test. That has completely gone everywhere now as far as I know. Certainly where I am it went into the bin a few months back, along with all other residual measures. Not a moment too soon in my view!



Definitely not down to testing requirements per se as Covid sickness is now treated the same as any other absence, so there’s no benefit to claiming a positive Covid test over and above any other type of sickness. It’ll be down to a combination of genuine sickness, no doubt including symptomatic Covid cases, and the poor industrial relations climate. Such is the state of things on the railway I’d also take the “high levels of sickness” claims with a pinch of salt. TOCs are keen to shift focus off the fact they don’t actually employ enough staff in the first place .

Many thanks for the reply, greatly appreciated. I completely agree, TOCs can be very slippery at the moment. The announcements have now changed from ‘cancelled due to a shortage of train crew’ to ‘cancelled due to a short notice change to the timetable’. Make of that what you will

 

[Dai Corner]

The School Teachers Pay and Conditions Document (STPCD) states: “Teachers should be required to provide cover only rarely, and only in circumstances that are not foreseeable (this does not apply to teachers who are employed wholly or mainly for the purpose of providing such cover).”

I’ve made the point that schools have some pretty creative ways of interpreting that and that my school has required staff to cover regularly, each week at several points in the past year or so. From what you’ve put, it doesn’t seem that you were working in a school during the pandemic, so how do you know what anyone has been required to do?

If you were required to cover more than 'rarely' and were unhappy about it should you should have taken it up with your school management and if you get no satisfaction there with your Union. You've already admitted that you had no idea, and no interest in, who was absent or why.

You were clearly playing to the ‘sack the lot of them’ gallery and the result has been that you’ve shown a huge lack of knowledge. You’ve also shown that you are happy to bad mouth your former colleagues, when in fact you later admitted that you had no idea as to whether they had been absent without good cause.

You have admitted to no knowledge at all.

I suspect there will be staff in all sectors who take days off when they are not entitled to and teaching will be no different. What you did though was to make a flippant comment that heavily implied staff were taking time off to give work to colleagues.

Glad we agree on the first point. As I've explained before I didn't mean to imply that Teacher A said to Teacher B "I'm going to be off sick for the rest of the week, ring the school and say you're available". More that "at least if I'm not in someone who hasn't got a permanent job will get some work"

On a final note, I’m curious as to why your ‘highly regarded’ business manager friend allowed a situation to develop where staff absences were such a problem. What solution did he recommend? What solution would you recommend?

He inherited the situation and although he didn't disclose to me what he was doing about it I'm pretty sure he dealt with it fairly to all concerned and offered support to those who needed it. One who was definitely playing the system was disciplined and eventually sacked. I'm no HR expert so have no recommendation.

What is the sickness situation in your school? You don't know.

 

[sjpowermac]

If you were required to cover more than 'rarely' and were unhappy about it should you should have taken it up with your school management and if you get no satisfaction there with your Union. You've already admitted that you had no idea, and no interest in, who was absent or why.

You have admitted to no knowledge at all.

Glad we agree on the first point. As I've explained before I didn't mean to imply that Teacher A said to Teacher B "I'm going to be off sick for the rest of the week, ring the school and say you're available". More that "at least if I'm not in someone who hasn't got a permanent job will get some work"



He inherited the situation and although he didn't disclose to me what he was doing about it I'm pretty sure he dealt with it fairly to all concerned and offered support to those who needed it. One who was definitely playing the system was disciplined and eventually sacked. I'm no HR expert so have no recommendation.

What is the sickness situation in your school? You don't know.

I wasn’t unhappy at all with the cover situation in school, where have I said that? You were the one claiming that I didn’t have to cover or had ‘volunteered’ when in actual fact that wasn’t the case. I really admire the way that you claim to know better than I do as to what was happening in my school. For the record, there were situations where supply staff were simply not available during the pandemic and it was ordinary teachers going above and beyond who often kept the show on the road. A very different picture from the one you painted when you introduced the topic of cover.

In my job I’m actually really busy from arriving in school until leaving. As such, I don’t have time to also monitor staff attendance and make any judgements on who is/is not legitimately off. You clearly had time to not only do your own job but had an intimate knowledge of the staffing situation in your school plus what happened in any return to work interviews…

 

[Dai Corner]

I wasn’t unhappy at all with the cover situation in school, where have I said that? You were the one claiming that I didn’t have to cover or had ‘volunteered’ when in actual fact that wasn’t the case. I really admire the way that you claim to know better than I do as to what was happening in my school. For the record, there were situations where supply staff were simply not available during the pandemic and it was ordinary teachers going above and beyond who often kept the show on the road. A very different picture from the one you painted when you introduced the topic of cover.

In my job I’m actually really busy from arriving in school until leaving. As such, I don’t have time to also monitor staff attendance and make any judgements on who is/is not legitimately off. You clearly had time to not only do your own job but had an intimate knowledge of the staffing situation in your school plus what happened in any return to work interviews…

If you were happy to cover frequently then fine. I merely pointed out that you weren't required to. Did you ever wonder which colleagues were too ill to come in and which had tested positive for Covid but felt fine?

I didn't actively monitor staff attendance, that was the business manager's job, but it so happened that my job meant that I knew who was absent and required cover. I have no idea what was said in back to work interviews, only what colleagues told me before or after absence.